Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Sarah Bessey 0:07

But I think the things that I have been surprised to see rise up is to see that the people that are contending still for the gospel and contending still for hope. And not light, easy, like, painted on a picture of Hobby Lobby kind of hope, but the kind of hope that is grieved. The kind of hope that has sat at hospital beds and polling stations and riots and continued to pray; continue to speak about goodness and flourishing and shalom and peacemaking instead of just peacekeeping. Those things have muscles and teeth and guts now in a way that I don't know that I understood when it was all theory in my head. I mean, you can live the gospel really beautifully in your brain and oftentimes, it isn't until these apocalyptic moments that you realize what does it mean to embody this?

Seth Price 1:05

Before we get going, a small break bear with me I’ll be right back.

Hey there, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am Seth really appreciative and thankful at the moment. So last episode, I had said, ”Hey, we have a goal of getting 1% of the listeners to support the show in some form or way”. And a few of you answered that call. And I'm so very thankful to people like Carr Cody, Christian Roof, and Cathy Norman. It is people like you, that make this show go. And I am so very, very, very thankful you should join them and and also support the show if you're able. And if you're not, I know that that's a thing, and stressful for some people, I want you to feel no obligation to do so I'm just glad that you're here and listening.

So if there's something that has been pressure cooking amongst many of us this past year, I think it is just stress, right? We're all worked to the bone, or we're not working at all, and that's adding stress. School is crazy because of COVID. People are finding new rhythms, daycare workers are doing things that they were never hired to do, school teachers doing things they were never hired to do. I'm doing things, you're doing things, that we were never prepared to do. Though I do find it amazing that for the most part, we always pick up the call. And we always do what needs to be done, for the most part.

But something that has fallen away, at least for many people is a practice of prayer. I think not a petitionary God, we need you to do this prayer, but a prayer intended as a meditation to help each other learn to grieve and lament, and cry out prayer to say what we're upset about prayer to help fix things that we feel are broken-that matters. So brought on Sarah Bessey. Sarah Bessey has collated a bunch of prayers from many beautiful people that have written words with such grace and such compassion and also such a rage. It's just such an emotion. It is an amazing compilation. It's a very, very good book. For those of you on the Patreon level for a book. It's this month's book and it should be mailed out on Monday, I think. I really hope that you enjoy it. So let's get going.

Seth Price 3:45

Sara Bessey, How are you this evening? afternoon? It's six there, that's evening. How are you tonight?

Sarah Bessey 3:51

(Laughs) I'm doing great. Thanks, I’m glad I don't have to do the timezone part of this, but that's good.

Seth Price 3:56

Well, no, yeah, you are in a time zone. We're all in a time zone. Almost every episode that I record is done at about this time. It's the only time that I can record things where humans are asleep. And there's no one screaming, yelling, entering the room, you know?

Sarah Bessey 4:14

Very well. (laughs) I definitely know very well. We have for four kids and two cats so this is a great time.

Seth Price 4:20

There's been a few that I've had to postpone like, “Hey, we're not done with COVID homework. So can we push it a half hour? Because we're really struggling with fractions at the moment and we have to get this done”. Everyone for the most part, like “I get it. Let me know when you're ready”.

Sarah Bessey 4:35

Absolutely. I usually tap out on math in about grade two. So if you managed to get to fractions, and you're still helping, I'm impressed.

Seth Price 4:42

So I work at a bank for a living and I tutored math in college math is my jam. English not so much I struggle with all of it. I can ramble audibly, but I can't write anything. Anyway. Not why you're here. What is, who is Sarah Bessey? Can't think that most people don't know who you are, but on the off chance of their 14 people that say like, Okay, well, who is Sarah? What is that? Who? How? Whatever you want to say with that, see? I told you I struggle with the words.

Sarah Bessey 5:14

(chuckles)

You know, I guess we'll start with existential questions, that's fine. (both laugh)

So I'm a writer, I guess that's probably the main way that most people would know who I am. If they've come across that in any way. My first book was called Jesus Feminist. And that came out to complete and total welcome and rainbows and cupcakes and unicorns, back in 2013. And then my second book was called Out of Sorts: Making Sense of an Evolving Faith. And that was kind of my way of leaving the light on for people who find themselves wondering or questioning their faith. Which ended up actually giving rise to the Evolving Faith community that I co-created and co-lead with my friend, Rachel Held Evans, who passed away in 2019. And then written another couple books since then. I live in Canada, married for 20 years for kids, all that good stuff I think that's about it.

Seth Price 6:16

Four! That's insane!

Sarah Bessey 6:20

They range in age from kindergarten to high school. And let me tell you, there is some big feelings in this house sometimes.

Seth Price 6:26

Four! Golly, so you're in it for the next 20 years. Like you're, you're in this, you're here for this.

Sarah Bessey 6:34

I was saying that even our youngest, we had our first three and four years. And then we had one last little baby, I could make a fool of myself over. And she finally went into kindergarten this year. And I said to my husband, I was like, this is the first time in 15 years, I have not had a baby or a toddler home with me and I can actually work for the day.

Seth Price 6:52

Do you want to do it again? Get a fifth one? Fill the void?

Sarah Bessey 6:55

(Laughs) I'm too old and tired.

Seth Price 7:01

So you don't normally start with existential questions then on the podcast now that usually easier than that?

Sarah Bessey 7:06

No, of course not. This is the good stuff.

Seth Price 7:09

We'll end with another one. I've ended with the same question accidentally last year. And then I've just carried that over into this year, because honestly, I really enjoyed that accident. But we'll get there here in a little bit.

So you have shepherded, is that the best word, a book on prayer, shepherded, maybe edited I just don't really like because I feel like, I don't like that word at all really. Probably because again, I don't like grammar. So I don't know shepherded is the right word. But tell me a bit about that. Why that you felt like that was needed, especially because prayer means 87 things to 96 different people. So what's a bit about that?

Sarah Bessey 7:46

No, you're exactly right. I think that's part of why I wanted to write about prayer and I why I wanted to have it be something that was more collaborative because I don't know how helpful it is to create, like a template for prayer; or to say, you know, I think particularly for the people that I had in mind when I was working on it. Which was a lot of folks who have found themselves very disenchanted with their religion very much like they've lost their old pathways towards prayer or the ways that maybe they'd understood it, or had it taught to them, or maybe even just had a very narrow definition of what it meant to pray or what it looked like. And so instead of saying, like, “Well, here's how I pray here, go follow these three steps. And away we go.” I wanted to kind of create almost like a prayer circle, which is something that makes room for however we come to that space and have room for all the different ways that we pray.

And for me, that meant having these leaders whose prayers I often rest in, whose leadership I often rest in. I mentioned, Rachel, when we were having my first existential question, and this was the project I started working on in the immediate aftermath of losing her because I felt like I needed to remember how to pray again. I wanted to rest in thsee sorts of prayers I needed people who would, you know, rage and cry and declare and make room for silence and grief, as well as hope and possibility and healing in the midst of all of this too. And so in a lot of ways, it was as transformative for me, I think, as what I'm hoping it will be for other people who read it too.

Seth Price 9:23

Can I, want to be honest about one thing, when I read the word prayer circle, the first thing that came to mind was popcorn prayer. And maybe I'm dating myself like are you familiar with that analogy?

Sarah Bessey 9:35

I feel like I have heard it from a lot of American American evangelicals vague idea of what it is and it seems like there's some trauma there.

Seth Price 9:43

It's effectively everybody you know gets in a circle bows their head and then we're not leaving until everybody prays, but you just kind of go on in any order just you just pop off when you feel led. So is there an equivalency to that when you're shepherding a book of all these other authors of prayer, or no, that was the first thing that popped into my mind?

Sarah Bessey 10:07

(Laughs) No, I think I was thinking of…so I grew up in Western Canada, and my parents are first generation Christians. And so I didn't have a whole lot of baggage around church, and then plus of course..

Seth Price 10:19

That’s great!

Sarah Bessey 10:21

Yeah! We grew up in churches that were really quite small and in a kind of a post Christian context. And so a lot of us were really new to faith and when people told us we were supposed to pray, we were just like, “Great, that's what we're gonna do”, right. And so I think that in a lot of ways, for me, when I thought of prayer circles, I thought of sitting with people who really love Jesus, and all the different ways that we often prayed together. Which meant sometimes you would have some of the, you know, kooky stuff come up, or things that made you uncomfortable. But then other times someone would lay their hands on your head, and you would feel the Holy Spirit. And I think having a sense of community around prayer was really important to me, mainly because it has been a very communal thing for me, and I love to pray with and for people. And I think having to translate that in a book is hard. But I think that the leaders, and the thinkers, and the writers who showed up on those pages made that space, it was really quite remarkable what they did.

Seth Price 11:19

Can we talk a bit about some of the prayers, and I'll be honest, I have for weeks, bounced back and forth. It's always hard when I talk to people that have edited a book instead of writing the entire book, because I felt like you're always giving your opinion on someone else's writings.

Sarah Bessey 11:33

For sure!

Seth Price 11:35

Which isn't really fair to you, at least I don't think that it is, maybe it is. But I'm curious. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with some of the prayers that you wrote, because I feel like that's a little safer for me. And I'm a little more comfortable with that. So you have a prayer in there on breath, and I forget exactly the title of it. Like it's right towards the ending of the beginning of the first subsection of orientation, I think. It's like ancient breath or something like that. And again, that's from memory, because I can't figure out how to make my phone go back to the bookmarks that I bookmarked, which is really frustrating.

Sarah Bessey 12:06

I found it actually, I have my manuscript here, because I don't have an actual physical copy of the book yet.

Seth Price 12:11

Isn't it out in a few weeks?

Sarah Bessey 12:13

It is but you know but the borders and shipping and post offices and things right now? I've got like the actual literal manuscripts so now I'm with you?

Seth Price 12:23

That’s insane. So a bit about a bit about that. So what is that? Like you say, breath prayer is an ancient form of prayer. And so what do you mean when you say breath prayer, because for me, that's foreign, like the type of prayer that I grew up with is strictly petitionary; marginally prosperity. That's not the type of prayer that I do now. But for those that are listening, like, what is breath prayer, what do you mean?

Sarah Bessey 12:52

Breath prayer was something that I learned about a few years ago, I think, when I lost a lot of the old pathways of prayer. And I think that, you know, we maybe have some overlap there, because the faith tradition that we ended up finding ourselves in was very influenced by prosperity gospel, Word of Faith kind of stuff, very name it and claim it kind of stuff, right. Which doesn't give you any baggage about prayer at all.

So I think that when I found different pathways towards prayer, like breath prayer, it was an exhale for me, literally and figuratively. It moved me from having to fill silence with words to letting the silence fill me a bit more. And so oftentimes, you know, I give a few examples, you know, on those pages of different ones, you don't usually go through all of them, you know, all at once. Usually, I'll pick just, you know, one, inhale and exhale, and sit with it just for a few moments.

You know, like, the first one we had here was like

humble and gentle one you are a rest for my soul

and just kind of almost sitting in that space that those carve out for me. I almost always pull them from Scripture. So if I'm reading something in Scripture and I see something that really calls to me, or really speaks to me, I'll try to create a breath prayer of it and then sit with it that evening or that morning. In a lot of ways I think that it has carved out space for the conversation with God for me, as opposed to feeling like it's just one way of talking and I find it very calming and very centering in a lot of ways. It centers me not necessarily on my own self, but on the nature and character of God, even on what I hope about God. And even that can be a form of healing.

Seth Price 14:43

It took me halfway through the book to realize that I don't believe there aren’t any male voiced prayers in the book. I think that that's correct. Correct. Every prayer author is female. Yeah. So I don't really care the reasoning behind that. And I'll tell you why. I have enough of that in my life and I always find it very helpful to have female voices. And I often hear God more when women preach because it's a different perspective.

So thank you for that.

I found myself off put at the amount of rage in many of these prayers. At least it feels that way. Like, there's one on prayer like a weary again, the name escapes me maybe prayer for a weary black woman maybe that's the name maybe it's not; there's like a prayer for the tired angry ones. Like there's just a lot of rage.

Can you speak to a bit of that about maybe why that's okay. Because I think a lot of people have been told you're not allowed to yell or scream at anybody but humans, and kind of maybe why that's cathartic and maybe why that's healthy when we pray?

Sarah Bessey 15:44

Yeah, you know, there was a moment of putting together this book where I knew that I wanted for people to have the permission to bring their whole self to prayer. That there is not this sense of you don't have to pretend not to be as angry as you are. Or you don't have to pretend not to be as tired as you are. And I think that for a number of people during these last few years that have felt a particular sort of apocalypse, right, a particular sort of unveiling, especially for, you know, a number of folks who are in the book; for the unveiling that has happened. Whether it's about, you know, sexual abuse in the church, whether it's about Black Lives Matter, whether it has been political, all of these things, we're all carrying these things. And I think pretending that we don't bring them to prayer doesn't do anybody any good or service. I think sometimes we forget that the scriptures are way more honest about prayer than we are.

And what I saw, oftentimes, in prayers like that were Psalms. I saw the cry of David's heart, I saw the tired and weary ones in Scripture that God makes room for and I think is very tender towards there's this beautiful image in Isaiah that talks about how a bruised reed he will not break. And I think that a lot of us are coming to prayer right now feeling very bruised.

And so having someone named and articulate that, even if maybe the experience that brought them to those words are not identical to your own. It gives you permission, then, to have those conversations with God, to have honest conversations with God. You know, like, you talk about how, you know, can I say this at church…can you say this to God? I think is maybe even what a lot of these folks are asking and saying, Yeah, you know what you can and you should.

Seth Price 17:39

Yeah, I tell friends, often if there's something that you cannot voice to whatever God it is your worship, it was definitely not worthy of your worship and adoration to begin with, like, that's just too small of a god. Though, I have been trying to figure out better ways to say that. And maybe you know, because you're a writer, maybe not. The idea of a huge overpowering massive God. Sometimes is triggering for people that were oppressed by a huge, overpowering, masculine figure, and I haven't figured it out yet. And until someone told me, I was like, I never considered that. And that's, that's real. But that's not why you came on. So wrestling with these prayers over the last you said, so you've been collecting these since Rachel passed away, which was, yeah, fall if I remember right? Wasn’t it fall? It's been a while.

Sarah Bessey 18:26

No, she passed away in May of 2019. So I started working on this I think the month or two afterwards. Because we were originally were planning on this coming out in September of 2020. And then the pandemic hit and everything kind of got pushed back. And now all of a sudden, it feels incredibly relevant for right now. So it seems like that was okay. But yeah, it was a long road.

Seth Price 18:48

What has changed for your faith wrestling with these different prayers for so long? And I have to assume in editing them that you're reading them constantly, possibly praying them constantly, what has changed for you as a human where you're like, “yeah, that didn't connect when I read it a year ago, but this is what I needed for today” has anything happened like that?

Sarah Bessey 19:13

Yeah, there's been a number of prayers within here that have actually become almost like a faithful companion in my own prayer life. Words, or lines, will kind of rise up for me you know, over and over again. You know, Nadia Bolz-Weber's prayer in there. She says, you know, “Dear God, help me not be an asshole” is about as much prayer as I can manage sometimes. You'd be surprised how relevant that is (through laughter) on an almost daily basis. And there's so many other ones, you know, Micha Boyett’s, Prayer Against Efficiency, you know, about learning how to slow down and slowing down to the pace of God. Even the practices and liturgies which is not something that was maybe my own tradition has become something that I've realized grown to love incorporating like the examen and breath prayers, like we talked about earlier, that sort of thing, poetry. There's just a lot of different ways that the prayers have connected with me and stayed with me. There's some lines from Barbara Brown Taylor's in particular, about approaching the mountain, like God as mountain in prayer, and I should actually, I don't want to put words in Barbara brown Taylor's mouth, let me find the exact words.s

Seth Price 20:25

She's really kind I don't even think she would care. She's so kind.

Sarah Bessey 20:29

I know she is a wonderful person.

Seth Price 20:35

Last time I talked to her I think she offered me chickens. She said she was overrun with chickens. She's like, “come and get one”.

Sarah Bessey 20:40

That story checks out. Here it is,

The longer I've known you, the more I have lost sight of you, which is not as bad as it sounds. We are so close now that I can imagine you with giant ears, white eyebrows over golden eyes, massive hands that give or take by your inscrutable will. There would have to be more distance between us for that. We are so close now that you come to me as breath, pulse, wind, sap, the steady humming current that weds all living things.
Imagine a mountain, I say to those who want to go there, one so familiar you can see it with your eyes closed.

Like that is…just stay with “imagine a mountain is so clear that you can see with your eyes closed”. It's just a beautiful way of understanding prayer and conversation that stayed with me. Yeah, there’s a lot in these, these words. I feel really, really lucky to be able to have that I've had like a year with them. And now that I get to kind of share them with people. It's like look, look at what this has done!

Seth Price 21:32

That time I have to try to pay the bills, be right back after this small break.

Seth Price 21:55

There is a line and actually Nadia’s prayer that struck me and I have come back to it quite a bit. So there's a line she says,

bless the things we mistakenly think are already dead.

Which is right after a couple paragraphs after the Luke, you know, Scripture that she has woven in there. So I'm curious, what for you, as a conscientious observer, and, you know, you have a lot of conversations with a lot of people and you know, you're in contact, (with alot of peopel). What do you think that we as a church, or we as a people have maybe have written off as already dead that if we could possibly spend some time in prayer would motivate us to action that would actually come to life? Which honestly is the gospel? How amazing would that be? But just curious, your thoughts on that?

Sarah Bessey 22:46

That's a really good question. I know, you have a lot of really interesting conversation. So I might like to hear your answer to that, too. So hang on to that. (Seth and Sarah both laugh)

Seth Price 22:55

That’s not how this works at all!

Sarah Bessey 22:59

Ah! Rats!

I think that that's one of the things that I have really felt very acutely maybe during this time is, you know, I mentioned earlier, like Apocalypse, right, which is a big scary word, especially for, you know, a lot of folks who maybe have, you know, tent revival, you know, sort of thing, the memories or things going on. But the real meaning of the word apocalypse is “unveiling”, right? It's a revelation. It's a revealing, I think it's the sense that this is where we've been that we've been revealed. And it can feel like dying to be that undone. You know, we've seen, I think the aspects of the church that maybe should die, that we can let go, we can open up our hands and let those things sink to the bottom, maybe at last, because they're just pulling us down.

And I think that that embodiment is maybe what's being birthed because nobody can pretend anymore, that the apocalypse hasn't happened and that we aren't completely revealed. So now what? I don’t know if that completely answers your question (though).

Seth Price 24:54

No it’s fine. I'll try to answer the question, because you asked me to. But, again, I will say that's not how these works. But, again, that goes back to what you said, I don't even know if I was recording it of like a bio on the website or whatever. Like, I just don't often find my opinion all that consequential. But what I would say from having these conversations and emails and private message(s), and sometimes people say, “Hey, can I call you and like, sure, here's my number, call me at work, let's talk”, you know. I honestly think something that has been dead, at least in the faith that I grew up in is the ability to expect things to sometimes be really bad, and expect them to remain bad. And I know that sounds awful! But I've come to realize so much of Scripture is lament and is sitting in that lament.

And I'll use something I think, friend of the show Mark Charles has said is “you have to sit in that limit long enough that God shows up”. You don't get out because you're tired of being upset about something you just rest in it for as long as it takes. And I honestly think that's what I see coming to life. I'm seeing so many Christians my age and people of faith younger than me that are spending a lot of time on the prophets and Amos and all that stuff. Because it matters for the Empire, that at least I live in. You’re on northern hemisphere of that Empire, the northern wall of the Empire there. And so that's what I'm hopeful is prayerfully, coming back to life. The ability to be angry in a really holy way to help maybe partner together to bring Shalom, I love that word shalom. To bring about peace in union and communion and reconciliation or maybe just conciliation because maybe things weren't reconciled to be to begin with. But I have no idea also, if that answers the question, but again, I was supposed to ask the hard questions. You're not supposed to reflect them (laughs).

Sarah Bessey 26:55

It is okay for this to be a conversation, Seth, that’s all fine! It’s your podcast you can have an opinion.

Seth Price 26:59

I will say when you can have an opinion, I do not know. Yeah. So when you said the Hobby Lobby version, I could not stop laughing because that's my wife and I do like to go into stores and some of their stuff was really nice. Like I don't mind that

Sarah Bessey 27:12

I'm not mad about my “all I need is Jesus and coffee” mug. I’m not mad about that at all.

Seth Price 27:16

If my wife ever hears this, she'll get upset. But we have a thing that we got a hobby lobby that says “wash your hands, say your prayers, because Jesus and germs are everywhere”. And it's in the bathroom above the toilet, which I find the appropriate place for it.

However, I know that that's gonna cause some damage later in life. Maybe for me, I don't…I don't know. But just the concept. And it came from Hobby Lobby. And now I just laugh at it. But I'm really fearful for my kids. And I can't take it off the wall because I'm married. You know. So…

Sarah Bessey 27:53

It is in the social contracts.

Seth Price 27:57

I can only win so many arguments a year. And that one's not worth… that one's not worth winning.

Sarah Bessey 28:02

There you go! Choose your battle.

Seth Price 2804:

I want to rip half of a sentence, I want to prove text half of a sentence from a different prayer. And so there's one not too many chapters after that from Reverend Winnie… don't know how to say her last name Varghese. She uses the word in prayer. She says, you know, "

these days when I pray, I send all of my hopes and fears into the air over the Hudson River trying to remain long enough for the language of praise to come to me naturally.

What do you think, is the language of praise? Like what is that? Because that's a metaphor that I've never really considered.

Sarah Bessey 28:39

That is really good. I…boy, Winnie is an incredible, incredible thinker, and writer, and is a very calming presence, if you ever have a chance to be around her. Like, just when you're around her, you just feel like, I don't know, you just remembered you're standing on the earth, if that makes sense.

Seth Price 29:00

Where were you standing prior?

Sarah Bessey 29:02

I don't know. Like, you know, sometimes you could just get so caught up in whatever's going on. You forget, like, “Oh, this is happening”. You know, I think that if I think about what the language of a praise is right now, for me, I mean, I'm making this shift and, you know, evolve over your lifetime. But for me right now, I think it looks a lot like noticing particularity, like paying attention. But not in a big grand like, “Oh, go love the world kind of thing”. But like this particular thing about the world, these particular people these particular moments, it feels like an invocation and benediction all at the same time, sometimes for the presence of God. To love or notice, or name, those things that are bringing that sort of music and possibility and praise to us. I think a lot of times we can have a lot of baggage around some of those big churchy words like praise and worship and repentance and whatever else. And I get it. I mean, I've grappled with them off and on for two decades, like right now. But I still like to hang on to them and reinvent them, reimagine them, look at them a bit sideways. And I think that praise is up when you can do that with. All right,

Seth Price 30:17

I want to zoom out, you section this into orientation, disorientation, and reorientation. What am I orienting to? Am I orienting to God? Am I orienting to prayer? What am I orienting to?

Sarah Bessey 30:33

This is the fun part. I didn't tell anybody that!

Seth Price 30:38

See how cool this is…now you can!

Sarah Bessey 30:39

I’m glad that you noticed this Seth, but I didn't actually name what that was. And that was very purposeful. And the reason why is because I can't, again, the nature of a prayer circle and the nature of the invitation. And the nature of the communal aspect of prayer to me meant that I wanted people to be able to bring their own interpretation and understanding of that, to what it was they were orienting and reorienting and disorienting towards. Because again, people can come to this space with that being Scripture, with that being God, with that being their understanding of their place in the world, that can be their understanding of how they even think and move through the world. And so I think there's prayers for in each of those sections, for however, people are coming to that, but I wanted to be really careful not to actually overburden the language too much for people. But you're the only one who's actually noticed that so, yeah

Seth Price 31:36

What do I win? I win something!

Sarah Bessey 31:38

I don't know, I don't know. (laughs)

We’ll figure something out, I'm sure. Maybe something from Hobby Lobby, I'll let you know. (Seth cracks up)

Seth Price 31:46

Well then you'll have to just send my wife the links, because if I pick something from Hobby Lobby it won't ever get hung up. So, um, I want to talk a bit about the prayer For All The So Call Lost because honestly, I think that may be my favorite prayer. Am I allowed to read these?

Sara Bessey 32:01

Yeah, sure thing.

Seth Price 32:03

So Emmy starts

Jesus, I am lost.

They told me to follow you and I did—to the edges, to the margins, to the humble and the grieving, to the oppressed and the slandered,

and then I'll paraphrase.

And they call me lost instead.

You know, so I think that this specifically describes so many people that I know that like, the more that I study, personally, and the more that I see other people study, I'm like, man, my God is so much bigger than he was. And you think that I lost the point! And I don't know how to tell you the point was massive and you're looking at a section of it. What are your thoughts on this prayer specifically, because honestly, we could just print this prayer for 200 pages, and just change the language.

Sarah Bessey 32:48

Oh I know! You know, Emmy means a lot to me personally, in my own story, but she actually wrote a book on these similar things called One Coin Found, but in that prayer, near the end, was that she called them and find out why in here. It's like the forgotten…here it is.

Jesus, in this congregation of the forgotten corner, I'm finding I'm not alone. We are the Church of the still lost in the lost and found. So when you come, bring a satchel ready to collect what longs for home.

And there's something about the imagery of that congregation of the forgotten corner that I think really, it's like a church of the Lost and Found. And those imageries of Jesus being that woman sweeping in every corner looking for that lost one where she called herself a quarter clinking around in God's dishwasher. Like just I don’t know where she comes up with this stuff. It's so brilliant! I mean, like you said, you could just read it over every night for a month, and still find something new in almost every line of it.

I think, too, like the other aspect of that prayer that I really loved is the connection of God knowing darkness and not being scared of it. That God is comfortable there with us when we're in the congregation of the Forgotten Ones. Beautiful.

Seth Price 34:01

Yeah, I have a good friend that is trying his best to show people darkness is equally holy as light. And it's often in the darkness that's where new things get birthed. That's the womb of spirituality. Like that's where things grow. That's what, anyway, different topic altogether. So I buy the book, I sit down. I don't know what people's expectations are when they read a book on prayer. I think oftentimes people are thinking, “Oh, great, this is gonna tell me how to pray in a way that I get that new job or whatever”. And I had a similar reaction to this prayer, as I did to Scott Erickson's most recent book on Advent where, I don't know if you've read that book or not. And if not, you should buy that book. Do you know who Scott Erikson is?

Sarah Bessey 34:49

Yes. And I have not read it yet.

Seth Price 34:51

It's fantastic. But honestly, it's not a lent book. It's not an Advent book. It's it's just I don't know how to describe it. But if you walk away from it and you're like, well, that's not what I expected. So what are you expecting that at the end of the book people close the chapter, there's there's pages, at least from what the Kindle copy says, where I can take notes and maybe journal some thoughts. But what are you hoping at the end that people like, set it aside of like, okay, now what?

Sarah Bessey 35:20

Right. You know, I think that there was part of me that really kind of liked the sneakiness of several aspects of this book. I think, because like you said, we have kind of this preconceived notion in our head of what we think of book about prayer, especially a book about prayer that's exclusively written by women. And yet not marketed as exclusively for women are positioned that way. I think that sometimes we have this certain idea in our head of what this is going to look like. And I liked the subversiveness I liked the surprise of it, I liked that there were moments in this book that would make people go, hang on a minute, can you say that?

And yet other moments, like in Emmy’s is prayer or another one that really meant a lot to me was Enuma Okoro’s, A Prayer For When We've Lost Our Way Again, which I found just very healing and honoring, I think, for the journey or the pathways that we found ourselves on. And so I think that the biggest thing I wanted, at the end of this book, or if people are walking with this book, is for them to know that they get to pray. That it's not just for a particular kind of person, or for you only if you have a lot of faith, or that it's only if you can do it in this particular way that you were taught or that you imagine how really holy people do this. I wanted there to be a lot more people praying. I wanted people to feel like they could have permission to experience and name and embrace new pathways of prayer.

And I think that just as I kind of like to reclaim language from, you know, maybe people who have co-opted it for certain, you know, own, you know, agendas. I really like the idea of that congregation of the Forgotten Ones being the ones who pray, and being the ones who have that gift almost given back to them; reimagined, renewed, surprised. Maybe even like you were saying earlier, the thing with Nadia, the thing that you thought was dead, and then there's unexpected resurrection. And I think that at the end of this, I think a lot of people will hopefully experience some unexpected resurrection when it comes to their ideas of prayer, or at least the possibilities of it.

Seth Price 37:32

We started with existential questions. And so we're coming close to the end of our time. So I want to give you an ability to do another existential question, because they're easier than the other question, right? Why not? When you say God, or the divine or whatever words you want to call or use for God, what are you actually saying that that is?

Sarah Bessey 37:55

That is a very existential question. Is this another one I get to throw back to you after? (laughs)

Seth Price 38:04

Nope. Although, I have answered it a couple times. Yeah. And honestly, my answer keeps changing, which I think is okay. I think.

Sarah Bessey 38:13

Oh yeah, for sure. I think in a lot of ways your answer should keep changing, or else you're not paying attention. You know that…that is a really good question. I think that I would name that, or say that, differently at different stages of my life, and sometimes at different moments of the day. But probably my truest understanding when I think about God, and when I name God or when I'm thinking about what I'm talking about, it really is about love. Which sounds maybe like the Sunday School, churchy, answer, but I think that I've had that so dismantled, and reassembled in such a beautiful and life giving, and healing, expansive, weird, full, sort of way that it holds all of it. And that sort of love is I think what's holding all of us.

Seth Price 39:06

Mm hmm. Love it. Love it, asking that question to everyone. So I've asked it…so I've had people on the show that if Buddhists and Sikh and I just love that answer, like I just love that question. Honestly, I've learned more about the character of God from the answers to that question than some of the books that I've read, and I don't know why and I can't put my finger on why, but I absolutely love it. So where on the internet, or bookstore, or where do you want people to go to do all things Sarah Bessey, or the book or this is that part of the show that we get to say here's where you go to do the things. Where is that?

Sarah Bessey 39:43

You know what honestly, if people just go to Sarahbessey.com I mean links for all my books and my newsletter and if speaking ever happens again, that's usually up there as well. Social media I'm just Sarah Bessie everywhere. I'm not that creative apparently. So if go to Sarahbessie.com you'll find everything you're looking for including an actual hardcover copy of the book. Unlike my pages, which we have enjoyed this whole time as I'm turning pages this whole, this whole interview, you're probably going to be not happy in editing.

Seth Price 40:16

No it's gonna be, it's gonna be fine. Sarah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for rolling with my probably different questions than what you are most likely going to get as you do your podcast tour, because that's the world that we live in and COVID. So, yeah, thanks so much I really enjoyed having you on. It's been a pleasure. I've read your work from afar for many, many years. And so it's been a joy, thank you,.

Sarah Bessey 40:38

Thank you, I really appreciate that. That means a lot to me to hear. I loved our conversation.

Seth Price 40:56

It's me again. So I will talk to you in a week. But I really want to say something different today. So find a practice of prayer that's new for you. There are many avenues and streams to dip into. But I will promise you if you can do that, God will get so big. Not in an oppressive way. God will get so big in a way that you realize you were in a tiny Creek wading in the water up to your ankles and you thought that was God, and it's not. So find a new practice of prayer. And intentionally try to do it every day. Let's see what happens.

I pray that you're well, that you're blessed, that when you look back on each day you find gratitude. You find things to question. That you document your lives mentally in a way that you're looking for joy expectantly because when you look for it, I promise you'll find it.

Take care, everyone.