Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Brandon Andress 0:00

fiction is incredibly subversive. And what I mean by that is that with nonfiction, I just write what I know, I write down what's in my head on a piece of paper. And that's where you agree or disagree. With fiction, you're weaving together a story with color and shape and emotion and nuance and background and story. And there's so much more complexity. And there's so much you understand why a person's making the decision, they're making you understand where they came from, what what forces are at work that made them make that decision. And it gives you an opportunity. Like, while you're learning a deeper kind of meta truth about this, you're understanding the complexities of relationship, you're understanding how a person can perceive another person and how a person came to the decision they did. And I find it so incredibly, because it makes you feel what they feel it puts you in their skin, and it allows for an enormous amount of empathy, which I think me writing a nonfiction piece people missed the entire point or they just dismiss it before they even get to it. But with this I'm having people from across the ideological spectrum wrestling with these ideas that they are engaging with them like they never have

Unknown 1:23

a put on not a waste. That Don't Look Back in Anger. Yes, the banner, a roll down the windows, like every cliche, and I loudly proclaim, tell the worst the procure to go in peace. Play that Sergeant Pepper's. She's leaving home and I let it so proud to go and get a singer falsetto like

Seth Price 1:47

hello there, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm Seth. This is the podcast. So there's a couple quick announcements for this episode. I brought back on Brandon Andrus, who is a friend of mine in front of the show. And the years ago, like a year, year and a half ago, Brandon sent me the beginning of a book that I read on vacation at the beach, like I literally sat there in a lawn chair or beach chair, whatever kind of chair you call those chairs, had the water lap on my feet for a full week and just sat there with this book. And it was an impactful book, the book that we're talking about is Brandon's latest called what can't be hidden. And full disclosure. I love it. Like I really do like the book. It is allegorical and metaphorical and very deep, if you want it to be, and I think it's an important book for everybody to read, regardless of what you normally read. So there we go, my cards are on the table. This is not an unbiased interview, you're gonna hear Brandon and I try to talk about the book without giving things away. And that is because there are a few specific questions at the end. Where do I just ask some burning things that you know are on my mind about the book and there are going to be multiple spoiler warnings for that before so. And yeah, so that's where we're at. I'm gonna roll with it. This is not my best intro, and I'm sorry, but I'm gonna roll with it. Let's go Brandon Andrus, we're back. We did it. You're What's this been? Like, two, three years now? Since you're on the show. It's 18. Yeah, that's three years. It's a long time. I didn't feel like that long. Welcome back to the show, man.

Brandon Andress 3:47

Dude, it is so good to be back. I felt like I never really left because we've kind of developed a friendship along the way. And so you know, beauty in the wreckage came out. I was on the podcast. And then it seems like it wasn't too long after that, where I wrote this kind of huge blog series on how and you picked it up and did an audio version and two episodes, which was amazing, by the way. And that had a huge response. Thank you. And so yeah, I mean, and now here I am. So it doesn't feel too long. I mean, we've kept in touch behind the scenes, right? Yeah,

Seth Price 4:23

yeah, definitely. Yeah. On a I don't know, what semi monthly basis, bi monthly. I don't know what the word is. I'm not good with that. Regular regular basis. So what's new since 2018 So you've you've probably hiked the bulk of the planet, or the circumference of the planet or like what what is new for you since since then? And for those listening before you answer that. I will link somewhere here there in the show notes to the first one if you want to listen to that. And it should was a good it's a good book, and it's a good chat as well. But yeah,

Brandon Andress 4:53

what actually yeah, I'll answer your question, but I remember at the time when I did that last interview And I remember that you are toward the end of all of these podcasts that I had done successively. And I was exhausted. I was so beat whenever you and I talked. I didn't have anything left. And so you could probably hear it in my voice. But nonetheless. Yeah, I mean, I've been backpacking. I can't remember. I think I went to the Pacific Northwest last year. This year we went to, we're not even sure where we went. Yeah, yeah, I've already lost it. So Antarctica. Oh, no, we were in Colorado. We went to Colorado and did part of the Colorado trail. And so we did that. And then three years ago, I guess right after you and I chatted, I went to Wyoming and got hurt. So that was the first time I've been hurt on a trip. But yeah, from a backpacking perspective, that's about it. I think we're going to go back this coming year to Wyoming one more time because we have failed the same route twice. One time a guy got sick with altitude sickness. I got hurt by stepping on a big rock and twisting my ankle. Yeah. So the third time is going to be a charm.

Seth Price 6:08

So did you get like airlifted out, or they carry you out? Or do you crawl or what does that look like?

Brandon Andress 6:14

No, I mean, airlifting someone out would probably be $100,000,

Seth Price 6:18

just money. It's just money. It's fun money. That's why I had

Brandon Andress 6:22

to write this book to try to make now but yeah, I just tighten up the boot and said, Let's do it. And I twisted it a couple more times, because you kind of lose that structural support. And I think I did 30 more miles on it. It was the size of my knee when I finished and it took about six to seven months to heal and strength. It was ready next year. But it was it was pretty rough sounds off. Yeah, it was terrible. But I mean, these are stunningly beautiful places the solitude is second to none. Yeah, these are literally places where you go, and likely very few people have been there and you don't see people while you're there. So it's, it's really kind of worth it even. Even though Yeah, it can be painful at

Seth Price 7:07

times. No, I get that. So I think you know, this, if not, you're about to so my wife and I went to Sedona in June, I loved everything like there were so with the time shift difference, we would be out there at 334 o'clock in the morning, which is fine, because the trailheads are open. And we would finish our hike by 10 o'clock in the morning, hike, you know, 510 whatever miles and it wasn't too hot, wasn't too cold. But it was we were by ourselves. Like we literally could have done whatever we wanted. And it was wonderful. So very wonderful. Um, yeah, that solitude is is freakin amazing. And it was also that beautiful.

Brandon Andress 7:41

I mean, and Sedona is just stunning. Oh, yeah. Beautiful, amazing area.

Seth Price 7:46

Yeah. Especially to watch the sun come up. So you you referenced this a minute ago. So we need to sell we need to sell some books. Everybody listening, go and purchase a copy of this book not

Brandon Andress 7:56

forget the interview. Let's just buy it. Yeah, just

Seth Price 7:58

interviews done by the book. Come back later and leave a review. Um, so no, so you did you wrote a book called I always get the name wrong. What can't be hidden. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. And it's a novel, which is different than your other past works? Yes. Yeah. So why why a novel random what, what? What is it that says, you know, what I'd like to do, I'd like to build an entire world because that would be easier than than theology.

Brandon Andress 8:28

I didn't try to write a fiction book. I didn't want to write a fiction book necessarily. I'd spent 15 years writing my blog. And I think, kind of out of that sprang the first book, which was self published in 2010. And then there was a subsequent book in 2013, also self published. And both of those were nonfiction works. And then of course, in 2017, I wrote Beauty and the wreckage came out in 18. And that, too, was nonfiction. And I'll tell you what, I I started getting this sense internally, and I can't really pinpoint when it was or how long ago it was. But I started getting this feeling that I don't even know how to say it. That something had to change because we had reached a point largely in our culture, where as soon as someone would introduce an idea, someone could look at the idea and say, I agree or disagree and shut down the rest of the conversation. And that whole dialectic of being able to engage with people and share kind of your truth about opinion ideas and wrestle through that and try to find greater truth. It just seemed like it was being lost. I think we've largely lost it. I think. I'm kind of getting hopeful again, that we're starting to rediscover that but at that time, I was getting the sense that Man, I was putting out blogs, and people were just shutting down before they would even engage with it and wouldn't even wrestle with it. They had already preconceived ideas either about me or the content. And they were just done. And so I, I was feeling that, but I never would have thought fiction. I mean, that was not the remedy. I wish I thought really, honestly, the remedy was just I'm done. To be frank, I thought, I'm going to shut down the blog, I will archive it, I will keep it but I felt really disengaged. And then in June of 2019, and I've told the story before, but I was mowing my grass. And I was probably like, four swipes into it. And all of a sudden, this image kind of, I say downloaded, it just came to my mind, it was just out of nowhere. And this is how primitive it sounds. It was a circle with like a line through it. And I started thinking about it, I'm like, That is a fracture in the hole. That is an island. And I thought, Man, I I started having this idea. So I stopped a mo and got on my phone and started taking notes. And it was just like this massive download, I stood there for 30 minutes and just typed on my phone, like these ideas that I had. And probably three days of doing this, you know, right and in stand in the yard for three days.

Seth Price 11:29

My wife came out, she mowed the grass, I sat down, and under

Brandon Andress 11:33

the moonlight he continued. And so, you know, I took some time to sleep at night. And I would wake up the next morning and take some more notes because all this stuff was coming to me. And for me personally, the way that I work, anytime that I write, I can't write just ideas I have to write where I have a passion and an energy inside of me that just feels like that it's gonna explode if I can't get it out. And the problem with that is, as you can imagine, trying to sustain that level of emotion and intensity over the span of a book can be exhausting. Yeah. But at the same time, I just don't want to write to write not I don't want to write for writing sake. So I parked all those notes for five months. And I thought I'm going to go back to it. I'm going to reread it and see if I still have that energy for it. And so whenever I went back in October of 19, I was like, Man, this is clicking More ideas were coming. And around Halloween of 2019. Two years ago, I started working on it, I started putting together character, you know, descriptions, character arcs, the timeline, I mean, everything you could think of, I have a notebook that's just full of scratch and scribble. And that was the genesis of it. Is

Seth Price 12:51

that the same way that you write your nonfiction as well just burn the wicket both ends? And then turn it in?

Brandon Andress 12:56

No, I don't think so. But this was really weird. And I think that you'll probably hear a lot of this a similar story from other authors during this time is that I was on one particular timeline, I think and what I wanted to get done with this book and the time that I wanted to finish it, but then COVID happened, like what I started in November, so March, so yeah, five months into it. And all of a sudden, my timeline just shrunk because I had, you know, time horse, mornings, I would get up and write before work. But then on weekends I just had all the time in the world. So I would wake up at 5am and write until two or 3pm in the afternoon on Saturdays and Sundays. And all of a sudden, I knocked off three months of writing. Yeah, put your stuff in believable. But it was kind of nice, in a sense. But one thing that I didn't expect is that there's a certain like, for me, there's so much of me in this book, for better or worse, that there were things that were happening to me while I was writing that I didn't like and I felt

Seth Price 14:06

like what do you mean? Yeah, it was,

Brandon Andress 14:09

this is gonna sound really bad. But it was almost a sense of mania at times because I couldn't shut off what was constantly going through my head with carrying all of these characters with me. And at night, my mind would literally I couldn't shut it off my mind would race all night long and I would wake up the next morning completely exhausted. I I've never once in my life ever I like I am. I don't even know what the word anxiety means or stress. I'm like the most carefree i i Don't get worked up. And I had to go to the doctor because I thought that I was having heart issues in the middle of this. And he said, No, your heart sounds great. We did an EKG and he's like, you're just you're anxious. Yeah. So they're certain and I attributed directly to this book because there were things that I was wrestling through myself. You know, I'm just gonna be honest with you and your audience. And I don't say this in all the interviews, and I probably don't want to talk about it too much with other people. But there's a lot of this that's like an auto autobiography. It's autobiographical. No one would ever necessarily pick that up. I mean, it's deep within it. But it's like, there are certain things that I needed to work through in this fiction book, without making it obvious.

Seth Price 15:33

Yeah, yeah. So I have four questions scripted specifically about the text. One of them is kind of that it's an autobiographical question. Because what I know of you is to recharge, you escaped to the middle of nowhere. And the setting for the book, as long as I'm not giving away more than you want, is also in the middle of nowhere. Why, like what is necessary to reconnect to some, not epistemological truth? Because I don't think that that's the right way to say truth, at least not in this context. What is the necessity to get away from all of the things?

Brandon Andress 16:14

It's an interesting question, because in one sense, if you look at the setting, which is an island, you would think this is a place where people go to get away and find solitude and respite and recharge, right? But what we find out very quickly is that it just doesn't come naturally. Right? And you can set up structures within that environment that are very self limiting, that suck the life and freedom and peace out of a person. And ultimately, that's what it explores, you know, it, it really explores this story explores ideas of asking the question, what is peace? What is freedom, and there are these definitions that we operate by. And I think that is kind of soaked into how we think about ourselves in the world. And I really challenged those questions quite a bit to say, Man, I mean, if you're set if your assertion is an island ought to be a place of respite and recharge, yet it's not life giving at all and you feel anything but that then the question is, why wouldn't you feel that? Why wouldn't you necessarily find peace and freedom in that place? That's the fundamental question.

Seth Price 17:26

Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is, I'm asking the questions.

Brandon Andress 17:30

You gotta know. Anytime that you asked me one, you're gonna get one back.

Seth Price 17:35

No, but I agree. So I do the same thing, which is why I think I live where I live, like, I live right off the Skyline Drive of the Blue Ridge Parkway. Like that's, that's where I go. Like, we had a chance just for four or five hours on Sunday. Yeah, my mother in law said, I'll get the kids, y'all hang out for five or six hours, could have done literally anything. We went up into the mountains and hiked with the dogs. Like, and I don't think that we spoke my wife. And I like, until we got back. And then we went get some ice cream. And we talked a lot then. But I don't believe that we even think we spoke saying we're like four miles and you want to turn around? And we both agreed? Yeah, it's probably good. You know? And,

Brandon Andress 18:14

but it seems like your intention was that you wanted to be in a place of presence with your wife that was regenitive, regenerative and restorative? Yeah, yet, I've been on trips and past people that are texting on their phones that are you know, they have it clipped to their side, and the volume is on the way up with the speaker. And I think there are people that just can't cut the chain. So it's like, you know, I think that that's really the thing, it's, it's an intention and intentionality with what you're doing. And it's exactly what we find in the other eye. You know, the, I know, we're being super enigmatic what let's just, let's just cut in here is I can imagine, like listening to this interview, and I'm like, Man, you guys are kind of talking this large 40,000 foot view meta narrative language. And we're not even sure anything about this book. And the truth is, is that it's really impossible to talk about this book. And it's really difficult when you're trying to get people to buy it. But it's hard to talk about this particular book, because every single thing in it is a spoiler. And so we're not being super elusive here. It's just that it I find it very difficult to say much about it specifically without giving all of it away.

Seth Price 19:32

Yeah, no, I agree. I've sent you bits as I've been rereading back through it, like, in so to speak of it to that. So, like, there are times when I'll read a couple paragraphs, and I'll be like, Oh, well, that sounds like the the the politics that we live in today. There are other times where I'm like, oh, Congress's arguing about that today. And then there are other times I'm like, my pastor just said something like that. Very similar on Sunday. I like this. Maybe that's me. I don't know. I found myself wondering if the words were written in such a way that I could imprint myself onto the story. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, I have no idea. And when I read it, I think I've told you in the past, like, I read it the first time, sitting at the ocean, listening to the waves come in and out. And then gradually, yeah, we were at the Outer Banks, and just gradually moving my chair, I think I read it over the course of a week, and that first time, just at the water, just over and over and over. And then to make matters worse, I just read chapter 15. Earlier today, as you know, we get to watch the sun come up. And there's the water. And I'm like, see, say I can't anyway. Yeah, I don't know you that

Brandon Andress 20:39

said. I mean, first and foremost, there are two layers to this book. And the first one is, I wanted to write a compelling story that was a page turner. It's a psychological thriller. And, you know, people are like, Well, what books did you read that inspired this book, and I'm like, I don't read Leviticus at all. And nor do I read fiction books, which, you know, that has to be a mark against me. But I, I would say that my biggest inspiration was breaking bad, because I'm a very visual guy. And I love watching Good, good sitcoms and dramas. And I take mental notes about like the great things about what makes me want to engage with something, the level of creativity and depth and the way things are connected, especially with Breaking Bad, but also the way that it leaves you wanting more. And so I think that that was kind of the inspiration. If no one gets anything more out of this book, I wanted to write a super compelling page turner that people thoroughly enjoy. But I have to tell you this, I went to this author event in southern Indiana, I was at a bookstore. And it was my first one for this book. And I know how I would do it with my nonfiction books, I hadn't really thought through the dynamics of how to do a fiction author event. So I set up my books, one with the cover facing the other book with the back where it shows the synopsis of the story. And I just figured that if people wanted to know about the book, they'd pick it up and read the back of the back of the book and read the synopsis. And everybody started coming up and saying, What's your book about? And I was like, picking it out. It's like, Dude, I just wrote 88,000 words, like you want me to distill it down to, you know, a couple of sound bites. So after a handful people finally doing it, I created a little elevator pitch that I put together, I'm just going to go ahead and tell the Yeah, what synopsis of the book is. So on this island, there's an isolated and restrictive community. And they believe that they're the only people that live on that island. And one day, they have guards that are scouting in the forest, and they happen to see something move, and they see somebody watching them. And so they pursue the stranger. And they apprehend him, taking him back into the town. But as you can imagine, you kind of know how the town's going to react. They think they're the only people on the island, a stranger as being apprehended and brought into town and people start freaking out. And fear just takes over. They're panic stricken. They put the stranger in the jail, to try to figure out what to do with them. And all the while there's a 17 year old girl who has only known life on the island, who's only known life in that community. And she's curious about this stranger. So she goes and befriends him by night, because she wants to help him escape. So she can leave with him too, huh? Yeah, so that's about as much I'm gonna give.

Seth Price 23:56

Yeah. And I would say for those listening, that is not the whole story. Anyway, I find myself wanting to argue with you. So who so? Can I make this a little bit theological because I can't help myself. Um, so there are some dreams for one of the main characters in the middle of the of the of the novel there and and in this dream, there's, there's like a drowning, there's water is deeply symbolic, and in many parts of the of the story, and I'm curious the role of those dreams. And I hope you know that the dreams I'm talking about with with, with OG, who's one of the characters in there, is that some form of bastardize baptism, is it something else? Is it just fever dreams from anxiety? Like, what is that?

Brandon Andress 24:50

Yeah, great question. So the one thing that I'll say before I answer your question is that every single word, every single sentence, every single paragraph Half of this book is intentional. It all has meaning. It's deeply symbolic. The story is an allegory. So it does have a story beneath the story. So you're right on with your assessment. So I think whenever I was writing this particular essay dream whenever I was writing this particular passage in the book, I was

Seth Price 25:24

anyone Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Andress 25:26

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just not trying to give it all away. Yeah, so I was thinking about, you know, he wakes up and he is ready to go on this journey. And the entire town is sitting and awaiting him. And then it kind of catches him off guard, he's like, up really early, and the entire town is there. And something very strange has occurred, I mean, right down the aisle that was normally just kind of a grass or dirt path is now trenched out with water in it. And so he's very confused about how they did that. But he starts walking in it, and the water I think, goes up to his knees, or maybe mid thigh. And as he looks up, and as he's walking in this water, there's this limestone structure in front of him, that is kind of a, it's pooled water underneath of it. But these arches go up to the top and kind of hold this thing together. And at each pillar, there are four people at each pillar standing there looking at him. And so one is the religious leader. And I think another is his wife. Is that right? And then I think other is his son. And then one of the other characters, I think, one of the guards, is that, right? And, you know, as he's walking down, they each give this kind of nod or a gesture to him kind of an acknowledgment. And I think the way that I kind of kind of not going to give away what happens right through us, but he makes his way to it, and the entire congregation or the audience or the town, start singing the song. And the refrain was, this is why you've lost the people, which it kind of recall something that he heard earlier in the story. And as he's watching how do you how do you say this without?

Seth Price 27:28

I don't? I don't know, I don't actually want that. I'm just curious, like, the role of water? Like is that some like, I'm just personally curious, like, is that some form of? Yeah, I think spiritual baptism is, I don't know what like, I don't I don't know, the just the role of the water in that story, I find myself I've actually thought about it quite a bit.

Brandon Andress 27:51

But the thing is, is that throughout the entire story, water is prominent symbolically. And I would say in this case, your assertion is absolutely correct. That, you know, water, as we know, it symbolically, is something that is regenerated, like we discussed earlier, it's it's it's symbolic of regeneration, it's symbolic of cleansing of, you know, coming back, coming up out of the water in this kind of resurrected, lifegiving state. And what we see happening in that particular scene is kind of this coerced or forced trauma that happens within this religious this kind of political religious community. So yeah, I mean, in this particular case, it's kind of like, the, you have certain ideas about what this and we get a contrast to it later in the story, right, whenever. So yeah, I think that's the thing is like, it really truly is this contrast between the two of you know, is Is this water, something that we continue to drink in? And that gives us life? Or is it something used for a function or a purpose to reach certain ends? Yeah, that was a really long answer to get to.

Seth Price 29:06

We did it. We did it. So I want to ask a couple questions that that are not necessarily based on content in the book, but maybe some some thoughts coming back from from reading the book. So if I was to read this in a setting of religious people, so say, I do a six week thing. We're going to read a couple chapters a night, and then we're going to discuss it for an hour at the end of those six weeks. Are the congregants in this body of people? Are they angry? At the challenges? Are they accusatory of you as an author? Like, what do you feel like would be a normal 100 people in a room? Be like, yeah, that's not. That's not. That's not I guess I've told people about some of the things in it. And they're like, Yeah, well, that's me. I know. That's not me. I'm like, but it's, it's me. That's it. You know what I mean? Like, what do you feel like that the feedback would be from people just taking that in.

Brandon Andress 30:05

So on the back of the hardcover book, it's completely blank. And this is very bizarre, because that's a place where you would typically put blurbs from people who are writing, trying to get others to buy your book. Yeah. And I intentionally left it blank, because usually you get people to write blurbs. Who are who reached the specific audience that you're trying to reach? And I also know that people tune out because it's like, well, they're like the last book I did had roar on the back, it had Hilary McBride on the back. And, you know, people can automatically look at that and be like, Wow, that's a way more progressive crowd than I'm comfortable with. Yeah, so it alienates an entire demographic. And with this fiction book, I did not want to alienate anyone on any, at any end of either political, either end of the political spectrum, because it's, honestly, I'm not saying this to be shocking or anything, but it literally is going to step on everybody's toes. And it doesn't matter where you're at. And I had somebody who read it early on, one of the early readers said, this book is can be an inch deep, or it can be a mile deep. And I think it's just a matter of where you want to go. I mean, how will you engage with the material? How will you let it sit with you? There are people who read maybe the first chapter and assumed that I was making certain political statements. But to be honest, the more you get into the book, you realize, Wow, this is way more complex than I imagined. This is hitting everybody everywhere.

Seth Price 31:43

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I want

Brandon Andress 31:47

to answer your question. No, I, I do have a church. Actually, I'm sitting in a church right now. And this is not my house. We've been recording a podcast, and we've been recording it here at his office. And so that's why I'm set up here. But that he has a group of people here at the church that are going through it right now. And I just I, I want people to know that this book for me is not it's not a Christian book. I mean, I think you probably know that. I mean, it's not really I think that they may have put it on Amazon as like, one of the categories is Christian, it's really not a quote unquote, Christian book. It's definitely a deeper spirituality, if you will. I mean, there's no question that it has the heart of Christ in it. I don't think there's any question about that. But I just really feel like that this is a book for people. This is a book for humanity. And I, I want it to not cause division I don't, that's not where I'm at anymore. I I'm just not in that place. I really feel like there's a place for challenging the systems and they need to be challenged. There's a place for running from the system and deconstructing, and I've been there a long time, a long time ago. I mean, I think I started that in 2007. So I've been in that place for a long time. And I'm at a place now where it's like, I think by finishing this book, that was the absolute clothes on deconstruction for me, and I'm like, how can it be? life giving? How can it be helpful? How can it begin healing some of our deep divides? Yeah, that's just the heart of it. I think,

Seth Price 33:29

yeah, I, as someone to I also, I think I'm on the other side of deconstruction. And I've reached a point where I'm like, I love that you like that. Like, when I'm talking to other people, I'm like, I like that. That's where you're at. I've been there. I like that, that's where you're at, I've been there. It's, it's a good place to be. I liked it when I was there. You know, it's just easier that way. Like, I I can relate to that. I've, I've had that same thought at times in my life. If you could throw punch one of the characters that you wrote, who has it?

Brandon Andress 34:01

You know, let me just say it this way. A lot of them. Well, it's because, you know, here we kind of go again, with the autobiographical nature of it. There is a lot of me and all of the characters because it's different times of my life. And so whenever you see some of their good parts, hopefully, it's maybe where I'm moving toward and if I see some bad parts or their shortcomings, hopefully that's where I've come from, and I'm probably bringing still some of the shortcomings with me, but I think that anytime that I you know, like one of the things that one of the main protagonists Thera deals with is she's reached me she's right on track man, she's, she's hungry. She's young. She wants to find freedom outside of this community. And yet she really struggles with the believing that everybody she's left behind is a lost cause. And believing that there's nothing redeemable about that community, and it's like, I wanted to throw punch her. Really? Yeah, we just got that. And then, you know, then there's another character who's a main protagonist. And, you know, he is a lot of the issue for the community. And I'm not going to go too deep into them. But like, there's that and, you know, of course, the main religious leader. He's

Seth Price 35:31

definitely.

Brandon Andress 35:33

Anyway, though, I

Seth Price 35:34

actually I actually don't think I want to throw punches him if he was a person, because I totally can get that I see it daily, like the the, what's the word I want to say? The ability to intentionally make yourself appear and become more powerful. I struggle with that. I see other people do it. Well, the person for me that I wanted to punch Every time she's on the page is actually Veloz. I can't stand her. I can't at all, every, every single time. I just don't

Brandon Andress 36:18

actually there was not much really good about.

Seth Price 36:22

Maybe that's maybe that's why I just like, every time I literally will breathe a sigh of like, fine.

Brandon Andress 36:31

That's so funny to hear. Yeah, I mean, but But truly that said, I mean, and maybe you've had the same experience as you were reading it, because I've had actually people say this, they've said, I think there's a discussion group on Facebook for people who are kind of wrestling through the book and asking questions. Okay, well, it's a private group. So maybe I'll just send you in. Sure. But anyway, I mean, a lot of people have asked the question about the characters, like, a lot of people are saying is, Who are these characters? Is it just one person and time is that, you know, Brandon, throughout his life, is it you know, so people are asking these questions. And I, I think that, you know, there's probably a truth woven deeply within that. And some of it I've shared here, but the truth is, is that no matter who you are, I promise that you will identify with the characters. Yeah, because there's so much of us and our current contemporary struggle that we have. And I think that that's what makes it so compelling. And so relevant. I mean, I wrote this in 2019. But it seems like that was written today. Yeah, I

Seth Price 37:44

100% 100%. Yeah,

Brandon Andress 37:45

I think that people can identify with the nuance and the struggle. And I think one of the things that, you know, getting into this discussion about fiction, and why would you want to write fiction, and I didn't even give you the best answer of all of it is because I didn't realize this ahead of time, I kind of discovered it, as I wrote, but fiction is incredibly subversive. And what I mean by that is that with nonfiction, I just write what I know, like I write down what's in my head on a piece of paper. And that's where you agree or disagree. With fiction, you're weaving together a story with color and shape and emotion and nuance and background and story. And there's so much more complexity. And there's so much you understand why a person's making the decision they're making you understand where they came from, what what forces are at work that made them make that decision, and it gives you an opportunity. Like while you're learning a deeper kind of meta truth about this, you're understanding the complexities of relationship, your understanding how a person can perceive another person and how a person came to the decision they did. And I find it so incredibly, because it makes you feel what they feel it puts you in their skin and it allows for an enormous amount of empathy. Which I think me writing a nonfiction piece people miss the entire point or they just dismiss it before they even get to it but with this I'm having people from across the ideological spectrum wrestling with these ideas that they are engaging with them like they never have

Seth Price 39:29

Who is the woman in the video the teaser video on Facebook I have reverse image search her name or her picture as best I can. I can't figure it out. Did who is that is it like stock and you made it or what is that?

Brandon Andress 39:44

Yeah, it's it's a stock video and it's the most god awful stock image because it looks like a link lake water but I manipulated all the color and made it so you did that? Yeah, I made the video and then my friend When I did outside the walls podcast and I had a couple of other hosts, one was Sarah dismore, she did the voiceover. So yeah, I just kind of love doing that creative stuff. And I'm like, Dude, I'm gonna make an epic trailer to the book. And people can find that video on YouTube if you just type in what can't be hidden. Or Brandon Andrus that comes up, like a 32nd promo video, but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good. Video, bro.

Seth Price 40:26

It's good. So if you're willing, I would like to ask you specific questions. And you alluded to it at the beginning, if you're willing, but after probably I have you plugged the places, because I do have specific questions. And I could call you tomorrow on the cell phone, but then no one else would benefit. And for those people that are cheating, just stop listening after a bit, and I'll tell you when. But I want to ask you the same two questions that I asked everybody that I have on the show this year? And maybe maybe there'll be easy, maybe they won't. So what do you feel like we should be talking about as a body of people that believe things, so in this case, we'll we'll call it church, it could really be anything. And that if we don't in the current environment that we live in, it's going to cause damage in a way that if we continue, and you alluded to this at the beginning, you know, you people have their their self implied. Here's what they mean. And I'm done with them. They said that they don't believe in the COVID vaccine. So obviously, they're stupid. And so no one else matters. I don't care what they think about anything, or, or in my case, Oklahoma beat Texas. And so now everybody that doesn't think Texas is the best football team is instantaneously dumb to me. That's a, that's not accurate, but it's accurate. It is accurate. What do you feel like? Are those things that need to be spoken about? And I asked the question as a play on a sarcastic play on words, or just the name of the show? Because I realized, after all those years, I really dropped the ball on using that.

Brandon Andress 41:54

Yeah, that's a fantastic question. I think, and I'm just going to answer it for what's right now on my radar, and how I'm feeling. And actually today, I really thought this, I thought, this, this has to be it or we're not going to have a future. I really believe that we have to get better at the dialectic, we have to get better at coming to the table with people with different perspectives and ideas, and a posture of humility, and be able to have conversations about different ideas and work through that together to find greater truth, and to learn from each other. And I really believe it, because I think, you know, I'll give you a couple of examples. So I'm doing another podcast. It's called the way it ought to be podcast. And this past week, we were talking about canceled culture. And so we're just kind of taking on these great big ideas each week. And it's like, there's no way you could tackle it in 45 minutes, but we're giving a good effort. It just the whole premise of the show is I totally get that Paul sitting down. And no, we don't come in prepared. There's no notes, there's no outline. And it's like a given take of like wrestling through these big ideas of saying how do we come to a greater truth? And what does the third way of Jesus look like in the midst of that? And so, this past week, we got a note from someone who was saying, you know, and I think that this is very intuitive question, but she said, What do you do about you guys being like white guys and your privilege, and coming from a privileged position and talking about canceled culture? And, and I just thought it, you know, at the beginning of her comments, and I know, she was completely kidding, but she said, I hope you guys don't cancel me for pushing on this. And I thought, this is exactly in one sense, the problem we have and not saying that she was part of the problem, but this is the way we're wired is we think that we can hardly say anything, or even have a critique of an idea. Yeah, without fear of being cancelled. But then I thought, God bless her for being able to say I'm joining you guys at the table now and I'm going to bring my opinion of what I'm thinking and we're going to hear that we're gonna wrestle with it because we want to hear her perspective and things we haven't considered. And I in so then let's contrast it so I shared another in another group I shared today about this interview that I listened to with Joe Rogan. And jewel, and it was one of the most mind blowing interviews with jewel i It was amazing. She's so wise and so introspective and had great stories. And I shared it with people and I said you gotta listen to this interview. It's so life giving, it's so good. People are like not listening and Joe Rogan, boom, shut it down, not engaged. And I thought, this is truly where we're at. Like, we're, we've reached conclusions about people, rightly or wrongly, sometimes it's bad information. But sometimes, you know, they may be a tough person to deal with, they may have controversial ideas. But you know, I kind of hunger, those kind of engagements, I really, there are so many people that I've met over my life. Because I grew up in a small church of 100 people, I had very small ideas. When I went to college, I had very small ideas when I went to this college that started expanding my mind and challenging me. And over that time, I've met people that have introduced ideas that have challenged me so deeply, and I thought, my God, they're, they've got to be wrong, or they're crazy, or, and what come to find out it's like, it's expanded my mind expanded my thinking, expanded my capacity to appreciate cultures and, and great diversity of ideas and people. And I think, if I had stayed insulated, if I had stayed in that place where I was like, screw that I'm not going to engage with that person. I wonder how much of a deficit I would have been in my life of not being able to grow? It doesn't mean that whenever you have, you know, a dialog whenever you enter into this dialectic, it doesn't mean you have to agree on the ideas. That's not the point. The point is, is there's a an honest, hopefully humble, given take of respecting and learning from each other. And that's what I feel like right now. We need so deeply.

Seth Price 46:45

Yeah. And I would also say, the book actually tackles that quite well. The ramification of not listening to people. Yeah, quite well, actually. That should be the elevator pitch, not the other one. That should just tell that story about Joe Rogan and be like, and that's what you're going to get by chapter three. So yeah, no, I agree with that. I actually was in a different group as well. Someone posted something about a Mark Driscoll texts that he'd written on critical race theory as he plans to take it apart. And the only the way I'm sure that Mark Driscoll can answer and they're like, yes, sign me out. I'm not doing I was like, I'll download it. It's free for the weekend. I mean, I'll, I'll read it. I'm sure I can learn something. I have no doubt in my mind that Driscoll and I are going to come to massively different conclusions. Yeah, no problem. But he's also brilliant. Teachers, I also happen to think he's manipulative, but that doesn't mean that he's not obviously charismatic and brilliant. I just don't,

Brandon Andress 47:45

it doesn't mean that he can ultimately change and soften his heart. Oh,

Seth Price 47:49

God, How amazing would that be? Yeah, and I think

Brandon Andress 47:53

that's the other thing my book wrestles with is that, you know, based on our own convention, we don't see any possibility of X person on that side of the, you know, on that side of the aisle on that extreme position ever changing? And the truth is, is that what we see, biblically, is just the opposite. We see loads of hard hearted people loads of self righteous, you know, holier than now, you know, In Paul's case, someone who actually killed Christians. Yeah, changing. And I think that I always hold out hope that even with, I mean, you know, we say this, and maybe sometimes we say it as a cliche. And maybe sometimes people don't really mean it, maybe sometimes I haven't meant it. But I really have been that person, man, I really been that person who's been on the wrong side of a lot of stuff. And I've been an ass during that time. And I've probably been the person a lot of people said, This guy has no hope. There's no way of changing his narrow minded fundamentalism. Yeah. Yeah. Well, people can change.

Seth Price 49:05

Yeah, I did not listen to your episode on Kancil culture, but I do have an opinion. And it's this because my son and I've actually talked about this because he wants to have social media accounts and that type of stuff. And I'm trying to make him understand. You can't take it off the internet. Like, the stuff that I've done with this podcast, those words exist. And even listening back to the first years, some of my questions or whatnot on like, that's not even a question I care about anymore. And actually, I'm pretty sure that I was wrong and even asking the question, but I think something should be canceled. Let's say bigotry and racism and homophobia and that type of stuff. But I'm also allowed to learn from my mistakes. Without getting canceled not should I choose not to learn from a mistake and instead dig in and refuse to listen to other points of views then maybe, but I honestly think what's the word, I'm going to steal the term from my boss, I'm going to assume positive intent until you show me that I shouldn't. I will assume positive intent like that. I'm gonna assume that person did not intentionally mean to hurt anyone. Tell me more. And then when I realized that you either did or you didn't, okay, maybe then we make a decision on what gets canceled, what doesn't. But

Brandon Andress 50:21

yeah, I mean, it's, it's a complex one. And I'm not going to get into all the ins and outs of it, because it's out there on my podcast, where I'm at on it. But, you know, I think that where I stand in this kind of goes back to the whole series a little bit is that my position early on in that series was that if I have a belief that God has forgiven all people for all time, preemptively, and if God has not given me that God has not given me the task of going out and being the Minister of forgiveness, but rather the Minister of reconciliation, the truth is, is that my only responsibility is to be one who is active, restoring people in relationships. I don't need to be the arbiter of forgiveness, I don't need to be the decider of forgiveness. And so, you know, I can literally be across the table from the hardest heart, the person who gives me a finger, the person who says I will disagree with you hand over fist, and I'm like, you know, that's fine. I'm, I still believe God loves you. And I still believe that we can find a common ground somewhere. And I, that's my hope. through any of this is that add on? No. And I, obviously this is the heart of the book, too. I mean, it's really a book about relationships and trying to work through the nuance of our differences and to see the other differently, and not to necessarily right off people, because sometimes it's difficult to understand what a person is going through. Yeah, and I know, that's what hopefully will shine through. And yes, people. Yeah, sometimes

Seth Price 51:57

we let our lamps and refuse to share them. So yeah. So alright, so when you try to explain or wrap words around what God is, what do you say to that?

Brandon Andress 52:15

I mean, the easy answer, which is probably the most correct, but I don't think that many of us even understand this. I'm just gonna say it, it got it is love. I don't think that any of us understand that. I think we come with such fractured lenses, broken lenses, and the light kind of permeates through that in different ways. And we don't see it clearly. And honestly, a lot of the relationships we've had in the past with people who are supposed to love us probably let us down or show just, you know, very finite versions of what love could be. And that's why I kind of hold out hope that whenever you hear in the Bible, it says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess it won't be because it's coerced, or people are afraid it'll be because people will finally see love, unveiled love unrestricted. And people will say, Oh, my God, I never knew and it won't be just one, it'll be all of us. I think that our we are so limited and understanding what that kind of love is. In I think that there are times where maybe you get a glimpse of it in your life, right, and it brings tears to your eyes. And, and it changes you. I mean, there's no quite some, it's like that veil that's pierced, and you just get a little bit of a glimpse of and, and you can feel it in it. And I can feel it like right here in my chest man and, and it's that love that. I actually I don't have many of these moments in my life. But surprisingly, I had one. Two or three weeks ago, I was walking, I just took a walk in my neighborhood. And I was walking down the road. And there were big trees in the distance and the sunlight was piercing through and the lights were the rays were coming through and there was a girl riding her bicycle. Asked me and and I just thought it was just this overwhelming sense of just, I was enveloped by this immensity, this, this immensity of love that I thought, it's, it's all gonna be alright. It's all gonna be alright. And but I don't think that we live like that, right? So whenever we say what God is God's love, but do who knows?

Seth Price 54:32

Works for me. So plug the places and plug all the plug bubbles that you need to plug. And then I do want to ask you some specific questions. And for those listening, after the plug the plug bubbles, there's going to be that thing that says you should sign up for Patreon and that type of stuff. And you should have already done that because then you don't have to listen to the other stuff. You can just you get all the versions of the show, including the one with all the items that I that I didn't edit out. So where do you want to plug the places to people and then we'll go into that,

Brandon Andress 55:00

yeah, so I've taken a different approach with this launch more than anything, I could have taken the easy route. But I've taken the way harder route I, I, I've been begging people to engage locally at their local bookstore. And if if they don't have it on the shelf, then just ask the person to order it. And they'll get it, they'll they'll deliver it to the store, and we're supporting local business. And it's been so gratifying because I've had people all across the United States, ordering it from their local bookstore. And it's been amazing. So that's the biggest thing because look, I'm not against Amazon, I use it times where I can't get things locally, right. So I'm not anti, I really don't feel like putting more bucks and basis is pocket. But it you can get it everywhere online. So you know, the Barnes and Nobles, the indiebound, the Amazon bookshop.org, anywhere and everywhere. I encourage people to get it. But if you can, and if you have the ability to buy it local at your bookstore, then please, please, please do that.

Seth Price 56:06

Okay, is there an easy way for people to do that? Or they just need to go like find their local bookstores or like a repository that says no, here's my here's my,

Brandon Andress 56:15

yeah, the easiest thing is to go to bookshop.org, which is really incredible. It it even helps fund local bookstores. Indie bound is another place I N D, ie bound.org. And you can enter your zip code, it tells you what your local bookstore is. That's amazing. And I think you can buy it through indiebound. And it goes through your local bookstore to arrive at your local bookstore

Seth Price 56:38

and you show up and get it. Yeah, yeah. So I

Brandon Andress 56:41

mean, there was to do it. I know it's way harder. But let's be honest, during COVID, a lot of our mom and pop shops, I've had a harder time making it through this. And so I really just want to support them as much as

Seth Price 56:53

I can. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Cool. Cool. Good. All right. So people, I'm gonna give you one last warning. Don't be here if you don't want to run the book. And honestly, you should buy the book.

Brandon Andress 57:06

Be done right now. Because everything in the book is a spoiler. And you want you want.

Seth Price 57:13

So you're probably thinking, wow, in the middle there, there's usually an ad break. So that's coming right now. Because, as promised, there are some questions here in just a few seconds, maybe a minute or so that may break the book for some of you. And so if you haven't read the book, and you want to stop listening, right now, and do the things you need to but outside of that quick ad break. We'll be back. And Brendon I'll discuss the book a little bit further detail. In brief. Here we go.

Unknown 57:48

Except, grace, your heart has Shine.

Seth Price 58:02

Yeah, well, I don't know if my questions will spoil many things. Maybe they will. But they are like as again, as I've been reading it back through. Like, Why is everybody so mad? Like it's like a powder keg. Like where are these people coming from that they are just at base level nine. One thing happens and let's kill everybody. Like, why is everyone here so mad?

Brandon Andress 58:28

Because it's an allegory. Because it's representative of us, man. Oh, I'm just so yeah, no, the people in the town the towns called Patrice every name in the book mean something. Every single thing ever. I mean, I'm telling you literally everything. Even things that you'll probably never find in the book are hidden in the book like Easter eggs. It's all there. Like what? I

Seth Price 58:57

know it's fine.

Brandon Andress 58:58

I could tell you why. But if people have already read it, then they're probably curious. Yeah. There's this one line. Thorough is with Odigo. And they're looking at the water. The waves are coming in. And they're looking at the rocks below. And she's noticing how and she uses the word bekende. And she says that the waves are beckoning the rock. And as soon as that's at the end of the chapter, and as soon as you start the next chapter, it's about OHCI. And Sophia, and it's when she is yelling out in the distance. And she and it says that Sophia was beckoning OHCI and it's a direct tie into the waves are smoothing the rocks. I'm using that word beckoning, and I'm tying it to what's going on with Sophia and Og. She's the wave that's washing over him knocking off his sharp edges and making him smooth and refining him. I mean, it's just, there are a lot of little things, but I mean, there are things that are even bigger and more noticeable, but that's like little hints Like little I'll give you one more if you want to hear it. Sure. I'm

Seth Price 1:00:02

sure I won't.

Brandon Andress 1:00:05

So, at the very end of the book, it's kind of a shocker. And people are like, Okay, what happened and I don't want to go into that part here. But people are trying to wrestle through it. They realize that something she's done. So she's had an experience of some sort. And people are like, Well, were there any clues throughout the beginning through this, that there was something off? And I said, Yeah, I mean, at the beginning that the narrator says that thorough was born on the island. Probably in the next chapter or two, Thoreau says that she came to the island as a little girl. Yeah. And then later, the narrator says that she came to the island as a little girl. And it's like, the narrator kind of corrects her story, because it's very fluid, this thing, like, so anyway, there's things like that, that are just hidden throughout that most people wouldn't catch the first time through. Yeah.

Seth Price 1:01:01

So this painting in the council room? Yeah. Who painted this?

Brandon Andress 1:01:06

It like in real life?

Seth Price 1:01:07

Yeah. Like, I understand the purpose that it serves. But its origination. Like everything else in the island was was built, you know, people show up and they make the thing that wasn't made. It was there, like broad.

Brandon Andress 1:01:23

Okay, so you're wondering who painted it on the island?

Seth Price 1:01:26

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, it's like a picture of, you know, a man and a boat and whatnot. Like, everything else that is created in Katrina. exists because it was created by the people there. But not that.

Brandon Andress 1:01:42

Yeah, actually, it was. I mean, we I miss. Oh, yeah. So he says that his dad painted it. So NUMA painted?

Seth Price 1:01:51

Oh, you're right. Never mind. Just kidding. Just, it's just too many things. Too many things in my head. Too many things in my head. Yeah, where,

Brandon Andress 1:02:01

but I will tell you one thing about that painting is that and this is kind of an interesting tie in. So people who have read the book will think that I think that they'll think this is pretty cool. And I'm actually I'm not not looking at you on purpose. I'm looking for that painting on my phone, because I have it. But nonetheless, I reached a point in the book where I was like, you know, I really want this character who's kind of wrestling through the situation to have something that he's maybe looking at, you know, there's ups. There's the painting, you can see it. Right? So something that he's looking at that he's wrestling with, and did you watch Breaking Bad? All of it? All right, so there's this one point where there's a picture and Walter White's house, and it's a dad, who's in a rowboat, and he's leaving the shore and his wife and two kids are standing there waving at him, as he's leaving in the weather behind him looks really treacherous. And, you know, it's kind of representative of Walter White and where he's at in his life. He's leaving his family, he's going off into this treacherous you know, whatever. It's kind of predictive. Yeah. Foreshadowing.

Seth Price 1:03:13

So Oh, he is the one that knocks

Brandon Andress 1:03:18

I suppose. Kind of did. But so I was thinking about that. And I'm like, You know what, I would love to have a painting on the wall that he's wrestling with. And so I just kind of started digging around. And I found this painting that was online. And I'm like, it was exactly what I described in the book. It was a man sitting in a boat looking at a young girl or a boy. And in the distance there literally was boats on the horizon. And as you look in his boat, the sail is down. So it's like I used that entire real life painting as an image to tell a story about people think that their hope is on the horizon. Yeah. All the while. I'm sorry that his piece is on the horizon. But all the while to the boat. Pete has been right there with him the whole time. Yeah. I just thought the picture worked

Seth Price 1:04:11

brilliantly. Yeah, yeah. This is not a spoiler related question, but just for me to use so I think I talked about some of the stuff that I deal with with my with my oldest with my son with with some of his medic, maybe I have maybe I can't remember if I have or not. But Tyron is the hardest person for me to read in the book because of my relationship with my son. It's heartbreaking. Yeah. Not not necessarily a spoiler, maybe. I don't know. But just for me to you like it is like I struggled to read those parts. Can't find my words. fumbled fumbly words. So

Brandon Andress 1:04:51

the thing that's interesting to me about that, Seth, is that this has been the most shocking part for me hearing from readers is that People are having experiences with it that are not what I intended or what I tried to elicit, right? Like I'm writing it from a burden, but I understand completely how someone's reading it. And it's speaking to them at a completely. It's very parable, like in that sense, right? You can look at it from a lot of different angles. And there's truth being spoken to different people of all times from different backgrounds. Yeah. But and I think that that's fascinating that you're picking up on that in a very real way.

Seth Price 1:05:34

Yeah. Yeah, there was one morning, I have literally argued in such a way. And then I read the same, because I've been reading chapters before I leave for work. That's that's how I've been able to triage doing the thing that I'm doing is read read after the bus comes and then have time to go to work and then edit at lunch? So but yeah, yeah. So I know the last time I talked to you, you weren't certain if there would be more beyond where you ended this one, have you made a decision if there will be or you're still at a spot where you're like, Yeah, I need to mow the grass again, and three years from now and have another lightning bolt

Brandon Andress 1:06:12

on the just in the private discussion group, I put out a poll, and I asked people is this the end of the book? You know, or does it continue? And it was unanimous that people demanded a sequel. And then one person, so

Seth Price 1:06:33

you deleted the group whole group is disbanded?

Brandon Andress 1:06:37

And one person said, you know, it's, it's absolutely done, and was very upset that I would even consider, because they thought it ended perfectly, not, not everything needs to have a bow on it. And it's okay to, to have to wrestle with how it ends. And I agree with everybody. But to answer your question, when I finished this, I wrote it in and yes, it is written as a quasi cliffhanger, or a real cliffhanger. And I ended it knowing that it was a period at the end of the sentence that I was completely done. And then it was one complete idea, and that there was nothing beyond that. And that is true. That is absolutely true. So it's like, whatever people read in this, this is it. This is what I want people to walk away from and wrestle with. Probably about six months ago, I sat at my desk, and I began piecing together the sequel. And because I know all of the parts of it, and it's it's complete on paper. And it's completely done. So it really becomes the question. So I'll tell you, and I'll tell you, those who are still listening, who are either cheating, because you haven't read it, you want to continue to shame

Seth Price 1:07:57

on you. Okay, Mark.

Brandon Andress 1:08:01

The only thing that I care about doing with us is not only sit this way, the only thing that I care about with this book is being honest to my autobiography. The first one was 100%, driven by my story, and it followed me all the way up into the present. So you know if there's a sequel than it has to be, so what does that look like? Here moving forward, which makes it a little bit more difficult to navigate, because I haven't lived it. But I have a really good idea of what that looks like. And so for me, the only thing that drives this is an honesty about me and my own story and where I see myself and where I need to go. And then how is that conveyed creatively through relatable characters. And so, you know, to answer the one person who said, you absolutely cannot because it doesn't need to be wrapped up in a perfect bow every time because the fear is, is that oh, you continue a sequel, and then it works to it's perfectly natural, beautiful conclusion. And he you know, and then the two Caprio thereafter. Yeah. Yeah. And I can tell you that it is crazier than the ending of this one. And it's not tight and it would almost be fun to write it because in much the same way that you really couldn't guess where the first one was going. No one would guess where this one's going at all. I think it's even crazier. My last part about this My only fear about doing it is that there is a quaintness to this first book, what can't be hidden there's a quaintness and a simplicity and a beauty to it. That I unless I was really intentional, I think it's going to be harder to recapture that quaintness. And that's what I'm doing. You're full of Yeah. Is that it? It? It can't the next book can't be this one. It can't be it because of the way that it ends. So yeah. Yeah, the answer is maybe.

Seth Price 1:10:15

Solid, maybe? Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. You enjoyed writing it, then?

Brandon Andress 1:10:20

Yeah, I really did. Because it it. It caused me to have to see differently. Because A, like whenever I sat down the first day, and I thought, oh, here we go, I'm going to start writing this. And I thought, I put my fingers on the keys. And then I backed up, and I rocked back in my chair. And I thought, What am I looking at here, just, you have to see it, and you have to feel it, and you have to taste it and touch it and hear it, and you have to be there. And I had not transplanted myself into that environment. And so that was a quick reorientation of saying, you have to fully be present in this story in this environment. So you can let people experience it and feel it with you all the blood, the tears, the whole thing, you know, I don't know if you felt it, but did you feel it? Like people tell me like whenever we're reading it, like we can see it, you're, it's very vivid, it's, we can see where we're at. We can feel what they are feeling. Yeah, no, that was the intention.

Seth Price 1:11:29

Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Like, I'm, like I, but I think the reason and so we mean, do you mean like the way that it's written is in such a way that I can insert myself in and literally like, so like that picture that you showed me is not the way that I pictured that picture in my head. Mine is, for some reason, zoomed out probably 30 yards from that. Oh, that that one's a crop. Sorry. No, either way. No, like, just the perspect like, far away, almost like I'm at the top of the game of the World Series. It's happening right now. Like, I know, those are players down there. And I know they're swinging bats. But I it's fuzzy, but I'm well aware of what it is. And like there's a story. For me, that picture doesn't matter as much as the story behind what the picture is actually portraying. But like, like the way that you describe like the pine trees and the bird that's that's basically palling alone that that has no fear, which is, which is crazy for birds, because they're awful skittish, they usually don't come up to people. You know what I mean? Like, it is very disruptive. Yeah. And easy to get in there. Very easy to get in. i Yeah, it's, but I also have a fairly vivid imagination. I don't know that everybody reads the way that I do. Because I bite off small chunks, and then I ruminate on it. And then I bite off another huge chunk. But it's that way, with everything that I read. I feel like I forget who it was one time, I was describing why Midland Texas can be beautiful, as I was talking about noxious fumes, but the sun rising through it, which made it beautiful. And the guests on the show was like, and that's why we know there's a God because somehow you look at the desert, and you found beauty in it. And he's like, and I'm not going to take that away from you. So

Brandon Andress 1:13:17

yeah, you know, the funny thing is that it's good that you read it that way, because I had another guy who read it, who I don't know, but he he took an early copy of it and wanted to be a part of the launch team. He wrote me a note after he was finished, and he said, that was really kind of difficult, was like, Oh crap, is it? What do you what do you mean? And he said, No, no, he said, It was phenomenal. But he said, I approached this book, like I was going to read it on the beach. He said, I figured out after like two chapters. Okay, I got to start over. I'm going to get out my notebook. And I'm just gonna start taking notes. And, you know, that's the thing. But again, I mean, you know, if

Seth Price 1:14:04

I did the same thing, though, as I was reading it, I don't know, if you go back and look at your text, I would read a chapter and I would text you things that didn't read a chapter. Right, right, right. Yeah,

Brandon Andress 1:14:14

I think that's great. But again, I want people just to, it's whatever you want to get out of it. You know, if you want to read and have a great time reading it and hopefully it's a page turner thriller, great. If you want to dig in deep and find, you know, the complexity and like, make it self evaluative and all of that, then it's there as well.

Seth Price 1:14:34

Yeah. Good. Good. Good. Good. Brandon. I've enjoyed talking with you very much.

Brandon Andress 1:14:40

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I appreciate you, your audience. I, you know, I guess my pitch here is that look, it's superduper hard. I feel like to try to convey something about a fiction book and I haven't figured out the magic yet about how to do it. I don't

Seth Price 1:14:57

know how to do it without just overtly doing spoilers like I did an episode we talked about Pixar soul. I just started to be like, I don't know how to do this without doing this. And I'm about to do this again. So on election day, I'm bringing on Kathy and Jr, Forrest arrows. Kathy Kong, and then Jr. And we're gonna talk about midnight mass. And there's just spoilers. It's don't listen, just skip the dang thing. If you don't

Brandon Andress 1:15:23

know, I mean, people have had time, right? So I mean,

Seth Price 1:15:25

like six weeks. But I just, I don't care if people like if you just don't listen, if you don't want to listen. There's just so much in there. But that's also deeply allegorical as well. Oh, yeah. Completely. Yeah. Yeah, I

Brandon Andress 1:15:39

didn't finish the last episode yet. Oh, my gosh, this is crazy. I had to take a break. But yeah, no, I was just gonna say that. More than anything, I just want to make a pitch to the listeners and just say, you know, just trust me. I mean, it's worth it. It's worth it to read it. It's it. It's meaningful. It's deep. And I promise that it's entertaining. And so that's the big thing. I just want people to trust me. I wish I could tell you so much more. And I wish I could tell you all of the crazy things. Yeah, yeah. We're not going to but

Seth Price 1:16:15

just trust. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate your time tonight.

Brandon Andress 1:16:19

Thanks. Good. See ya.

Unknown 1:16:22

There's a blood there is blood. Come clean again.

Seth Price 1:16:53

Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patrons supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard, what are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful for you. I pray that you are blessed. You know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon

Unknown 1:17:57

but I'd rathe