Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Tyler 0:00
So I love making note of what did the apostles preach and noting what did they not preach. And so what they preach was the death, burial, and resurrection everywhere they went starting Jerusalem, you know, Judea, Samaria, the uttermost parts of the world. Acts 1:8, that was their plan. And so every chance they had to talk, to preach, to this audience, Jew, Gentile in Athens, it was all about Jesus. And so like I said, if you make notes on what they preached, and that’s take up like one page in the notebook, and then you can devote the rest of the notebook to what they didn't preach. And pretty much what you would have is Romans through Revelation, because that's where that belongs. You know our relationship with God isn't determined by our right beliefs that is contained in Romans to Revelation. It's really our belief and embrace, in that message that's preached throughout the book of Acts.
Seth Price 1:27
Hey there, welcome back! I think tomorrow is May, maybe today is May. By the time you're listening to this, it could be July who knows spring is in full swing, I can barely breathe because of the allergies. But I am down here in the basement, in my hole, that I record these in with my dog, and I'm really enjoying it. I hope that you're all well, I need you to do something for me though. I need you to tell a friend on social media and I need you to review and subscribe to the show in whatever your app is that you do. Telling a friend somewhere about the show why you like it, maybe giving them an episode is one of the best ways to get new ears, listening to the show. Do that for me, if you would, I would appreciate it. This week, I am joined by Tyler Ellis who is someone that reached out to me on Twitter. And I watched his TED talk quite a few times. Really enjoyed the talk. I really also enjoyed the conversation that we had. And so he did something really neat. He did something that reminds me a lot of this show, he just sat and he talked to people about God (and) asked them what they thought, concerns, complaints, etc. And I think that he learned quite a bit and I'm sure that they did as well. I hope that you like this conversation, cue it up, and let's go.
Seth Price 3:08
Tyler Ellis, welcome to the show man. And before I asked you anything, I want to apologize. So I think what are we at? Five months, four months, three months to figure out a time to do this. And a lot of that is because we're all busy. I forget about Twitter and Facebook and email, and then I dive back in and I'm like, “Oh, I should respond to everybody.” And then it's overwhelming. So I just kind of…I need a minute
Tyler 3:31
Yeah, no problem. So I don't have any issue being persistent.
Seth Price 3:36
Well, I appreciate your patience with me. So, um, one of my favorite questions, and it's a question I asked everyone, but I try to take it from a different direction. If I was to say, hey, what makes you you? Like, I don't want that trite to answer if you're like, I'm my husband, and I'm a father and all that garbage. Like, if you were to say, hey, here's what's important to me. As I look back on life, here's what makes me me, like, what would you want me to know?
Tyler 3:59
I mean, I'm follower of Jesus. I would say that that's the biggest part about me. I believe he was real, and is real. And hears my prayer. And as much as I get frustrated, not being able to look him in the eye and hear his voice, you know, same with God the Father. I believe I will someday. And I think God is probably equally frustrated as we are because I think when he made people he intended to have a face to face relationship with them. And a bunch of stuff happened that thwarted that, temporarily, but he's working to restore that. And so it's interesting to consider like you know, is God as frustrated as I am.
Seth Price 4:54
Probably, I mean, because if we can have it frustrated emotion thats a reflection of the emotion. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's an emotion that we have that he can't have or she can't have. I don't care what pronoun you want to use. Yeah, I had an argument with someone the other day, like, you can't say God our mother. And I was like, you're aware that like most of those Hebrew terms are all feminine nouns. Like it's settle down, settle down, like the word wisdom. And he really literally, is a feminine word like Mama, almost. And he's like, I didn't know that like, well, stop it. What are you so afraid of? So? Um, yeah, so brought you on. So for those listening, hit pause, because you have 10 minutes because you decided to download a 40 to 60 minute podcast and so I know that you like to listen to things. So hit pause, go to the show notes. Tyler did a TED talk, which is a big thing. You stood on the red circle. I mean, that's actually you walked over it a lot. You didn't stand on it much. Yeah you kept going back and forth. So I want to hear the story of that, like, how did they contact you? Why did they do that? Like, how did all that happen? And then we can get to what you talked about and the art behind it and all the stories that sounds fascinating.
Tyler 6:14
So there is a difference between TED and TEDx. I did a TEDx talk. So Ted, and I can be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it started back in the 70s.
Seth Price 6:27
Really? Is it that old?
Tyler 6:29
Yeah. Billy Graham even gave a TED talk.
Seth Price 6:33
Is that on YouTube?
Tyler 6:34
It is. It is based on Technology.
Seth Price 6:34
Oh that's happening right now.
Tyler 6:36
Yeah, Rick Warren did one on the Purpose Driven Life. He sat in a chair the whole time. But I am in a very short line of people who spoken about Christianity, in a positive light, and specifically Jesus on the TED stage. And so, TED is an annual event, if I'm not mistaken, that you're invited to, whereas Tedx means independent. And those are events that can happen all over the world. And pretty much every day somewhere, there's a TEDx talk. And those are still endorsed by TED there on the TED website there on TED-YouTube channel with all 23 million subscribers. It's a lot of people, but it's something that the speakers, the TEDx speakers, they actually submit applications to. And so I submitted about 40 applications from Texas, to Australia, Ireland, Germany, New York City all over the world. And there's a school in Marshall, Texas. This is called Wiley College. It's a historically black college, a Methodist college. And they said yes, they invited me to be one of eight speakers last October.
I had to submit an application of video that summarize my talk. And then some TEDx conferences, there's a lot of steps. There's auditions and interviews and then there's a coach that works with you on a weekly basis. Every one is a little bit different. But yeah, it was not easy. I would say without going into details there have been at least four major obstacles. One was before the talk, one was actually during the talk
Seth Price 8:49
Like doing it.
Tyler 8:50
Yeah. And then two have been since that time has been online, and all four of those almost prevented that talk from ever happening or being recorded properly or even, you know, at the threat of being taken down. So I don't really feel the freedom to share the details
Seth Price 9:12
You don't have to.
Tyler 9:13
I feel like God's fighting for it. I feel like there's a good message that is worth sharing. And, and all those obstacles. I just pray and trust God.
Seth Price 9:20
You said eight speakers, right?
Tyler 9:25
Yes
Seth Price 9:26
Yeah, yeah. So were the other seven all, were they also all about religion and Christianity and Jesus or what were they? How did you fit into that mix?
Tyler 9:36
Yeah, so mine was the only religious oriented talk. There was a couple guys who spoke on race. And there was a professor from Wiley College. And there was one that was about it's called Breaking Up with Yourself. There was a professor, who actually is at another Christian school, but he spoke about being a bus driver back in the day. And for what, 30 years maybe, and some of the stories running into kids as adults. And so yeah every TED talk and every TEDx talk part of the appeal for the audience to come is to just get these very diverse and random talks. There can be someone on stage, you know, beatboxing and there can be someone who pulled out a brain from a humans skull.
Seth Price 10:42
Oh, that's disgusting.
Tyler 10:44
Yes, they're very diverse.
Seth Price 10:43
So we don't have cable at my house. We just have Rokus because I can't afford a $400 Apple TV because they're insane. So the one of my favorite channels on there, there's a TED I don't know if you know what a Roku is. I'm gonna assume that people know what it is. You don't know what it is? So it's like so if you don't want to pay like Xfinity or Cox or I don't know the name of the of it doesn't matter Verizon, like $400 a month just for the privilege of watching TV to record it on the DVR to watch it two weeks later and then realize, oh, I could have just paid Hulu $7 and done the exact same thing. So Roku is like a box that just plugs into the internet. And then anything on the internet is like its own app almost like an iPhone. And so there's a TED app on the Roku.
So I can literally hit head. And it just I can just hit. There's all the categories there of their talks. Or you can just hit go just hit random and just make it happen. I watched TED talks all the time. I learned so much. Two my favorites. There's one kid I think he's from Seoul and he just started making bows, like literally walking in Korea, and just making bows and then gradually got better and better. [He] started doing different woods. Somehow or another turned into a business but mostly he's like, I don't even know why people pay me for this because I just really like I just needed something to do. And then there's another one where they talk about how language is evolving even to today. And like when you know, you say you kids with, you know, changing the words and blah, blah, blah, like, there was a professor's like, that's the way language works. And if you don't believe me, let's just roll back 60 years, 60 more years, all the way back to like Socrates really getting upset about some of his students, which are famous philosophers, and their lack and frivolousness with the language.
Like it's not a new thing, so those are two of my favorite TED Talks, but they just randomly popped up and I'm like this. You have my attention. So what made you want to do that? So you're pitching this idea to…I wish you'd got Australia because they find you there. Do you have to figure it out how to get there?
Tyler 12:50
No, it’s on your dime? You get paid to speak but you have to get there.
Seth Price 12:52
And so why did you want to do that? Like what was that they were like this needs to happen and it needs to happen there.
Tyler 13:00
Well, I have a desire. I've published one book that I'd like to publish more. I'd like to be a keynote speaker. I work for a nonprofit that I could tell you about in a minute if you would like. And part of that involves me raising support, kind of like a missionary would. And so, my wife homeschools our kids, but she does VIP kids. So she's waking up really early.
Seth Price 13:30
What is VIP kids? I'm not familiar with that.
Tyler 13:32
VIP kids is where American teachers and maybe other English speaking countries will teach English online to kids in, primarily I believe China, but I don't think it's limited to, but because of the time difference, man, my wife has to wake up at like 4am. And so she’s recently found some health issues that she has. So I'd really love to be able to support my family on one income. So there's some personal reasons like, I need more income, like be a speaker. I like to write books. But then there's the obvious, there's a message to those keynotes and the book that I believe in, and I would do it whether I had to pay or whether I made money. It's, you know, TED’s mantra is ideas worth spreading. And so I was a college minister for almost 15 years.
Seth Price 14:36
At like a college or like for college aged kids?
Tyler 14:39
At three different universities.
And so I love apologetics. I love having coffee with people, asking them questions, hearing their questions, finding discerning a good starting point, going at their pace, and just helping people investigate. And sometimes people make significant spiritual progress in a week. And I've met with people on a weekly basis for like two years. So that's just what I love to do. So, back when I was a college minister at the University of Delaware
Seth Price 15:19
That’s the Hens right? Isn't that the Hens?
Tyler 15:22
The Fighting Blue Hens fighting blue hands! Yeah. That's a great mascot isn’t it?
Joe Biden graduated.
Seth Price 15:34
Is it really?
Tyler 15:35
Yeah. They have two famous Joe's. Joe Biden and Joe Flacco.
Seth Price 15:40
That's probably the reason that I know that it's a Hen
Tyler 15:43
Yes, he plays for the Ravens. So yeah. While was that UD I started this experiment where I interviewed 50 people. Most of them are college students and some were college professors and In my TEDx talk, I share about what I call the unexpected adventures and the unexpected discoveries that I experienced through that two year process. And what I would do is I'd interview them, ask them 20 questions, draw their portrait. And then oftentimes that was it. I put it on a blog that I had at the time. And then people would read it. And the diversity of the people I interviewed is probably as diverse as the people on your podcast, people from different parts of the world, you know, international students. People of different religions, religious people, agnostics and atheists. And so their beliefs and their backgrounds were just the whole gamut.
And so it made it fun for people to read these interviews because I have each person sign a media consent form. And I posted the drawing that I did. And so when I thought about TED, and the opportunity there, you know, they have 23 million subscribers on YouTube, and it's a very well respected platform. And I just got to thinking, you know, maybe I could stand in that red circle and share this fascinating story that's pretty unique. You know, most people haven't sat down the 50 strangers for an hour at a time, bought them coffee and had some really amazing experiences. Some of those people became really special friends to me.
And so, through that story, I was also able to share about Jesus because a lot of my questions had to do with, you know, people's spiritual beliefs. The purpose of life. What comes to mind when you think about heaven and hell? And things like that. And so through that, to answer your question, it's kind of a roundabout way to say that I've just honestly, Seth, really wanted to talk about Jesus. Because it hasn't been done. Not in an explicit way.
Seth Price 18:27
On TEDx you mean?
Tyler 18:29
Yeah, that's right. Although my approach was indirect, and it was tactful, and you might even say shrewd. But through stories I got to kind of represent Christianity in a way that was stories about my response to their questions. Because one of the things that took place when I interviewed these 50 people, it's just about 50% of them when the interview was over, said Hey, I want to interview you. And can we meet up again? And that was one of my what I call unexpected discoveries was that these talks went so well. And a lot of people were articulating their beliefs for the first time. And even some questions that might make you cringe if you were asked those questions by someone in a different setting, like say at work standing around the water cooler or at a family reunion, you know. When I asked those questions across from the coffee table, surprisingly, people didn't cringe they opened up. I mean, I have people actually cry.
Seth Price 19:49
Why do you think it is? So (are you) expecting them to pull back; this is actually I thought I signed up for this, but I can't do that. Like why do you think that people were so willing? And I have to think not everybody was willing immediately, but like, why do you think that? Some of them were? Yeah, thanks for asking. Let's get into this. Like, what was it that you were doing that maybe most people don't when they're trying to talk about God?
Tyler 20:13
Well, it was a one sided conversation. They knew from the start, that this is not a debate. This really isn't even a conversation because Tyler’s going to ask questions, and the floor is mine. He's curious, he's listening. He's not not listening, because he's thinking of how to refute me when I'm done. And so it was neat for them to have a positive interaction with a Christian who genuinely cared. And so there was something about it, you know, coffee, and artwork, and questions. That combination is this what I call three of my favorite things, talking, art, and questions.
Seth Price 21:00
That's the name of your next book right there. Done. You can take it it’s free!
Tyler 21:06
There was something about it. People just said yes. Hmm. And like say they opened up some people with people would conclude that our by saying “that was one of the best conversations I've ever had”. Which is a funny thing to say when it wasn't actually a conversation, right? And then like I say, some people cried. And people said, “Man, these are great questions. I never think about this stuff, but I should because it's important. And I found myself saying, I don't know, like a lot. And I wish I did know, so what can I do next?” You know, and that's why a lot of people were like, well, what's your take on this topic? Yeah. The mind when you think about that? How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Seth Price 21:56
So how did the reverse interview go because you don't really talk about that in your talk. So like, yes, it's a month later a week later, a day later, I don't know how many doesn't matter. Like, how did that go? Like what are some of the questions like, are they asking you the same questions and just reverts? Like, how is that working?
Tyler 22:14
Sure, you know, I never had someone just say, bring those 20 questions, and then I'll walk through it with you and you just have coffee. Actually in the TEDx talk, right about in the middle of it I make the statement that about half the people I met with wanted to meet up again, me. So I said the statement that two of the most common questions that I got were, “do you believe all paths lead to God”? And “how can one person's death enable another person's forgiveness”? And so that was kind of a segue for me to actually share with the audience what I would share in those conversations at the coffee shop.
And so I shared at one illustration for each of those questions and that was kind of a sampling of how some of those follow up conversations went.
Seth Price 23:08
I want to ask a question. So I wrote my own questions. And I've only read three or four the ones that you sent me. So I'll skim through them if one catches my eye. So you have a thing in your talk is called, I think you call it the mountain theory. And then from memory, basically, you show a picture like a huge black triangle. And the very pinnacle of the triangle says, God, I think it says God; it could say something else. Yeah, God could say Jesus could say, Yeah, I don't doesn't matter. And then you go down to the bottom and you draw like, lines, like if we're going to hike up to the top of the mountain, like, here's one path two path three path four path, you know, alluding to what you did. But so when you begin redoing the image, you don't ever complete the mountain. None of the paths in your image. Now, I'm aware that you only have like 10 or 12 minutes on the TEDx stage, but you never go past the first outcropping of the hikes. If that makes sense? Like, none of those images, if memory serves ever make it back to God, although I'm certain that that's not what you're implying.
But you also allude to that work as some work from somebody else. And I can't remember his name like, yeah, yeah. So where, where's what's in the middle there? Like there must be something else there, or is it just a gap in the image is never finished?
Tyler 24:21
Yeah, I did that on purpose. And that illustration I adapted and tweaked and made down but I found it in Dan Kimball’s book. They Like Jesus but Not The Church. I actually emailed him beforehand and he gave me permission. So yeah, that talk is called the mountain theory. And it responds to that question. Do you believe all paths lead to God? And that's a pretty common belief actually. There's quotes from Madonna quotes from Oprah Winfrey, who propose that idea that all religions are basically the same. And they lead to the same God. So, you know, let's stop fighting. Let's be tolerant.
And I appreciate where they're coming from. Yeah, let's not fight. And let's appreciate the similarities. But, also, you could take that too far and avoid some of the problems with the theory. So what I presented was that the base of that mountain does have two similarities. The first is that yeah we pretty much all agree that there's a moral standard. And that when we follow that moral standard we will experience peace. Whether you’re Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, you know, whatever, Hindu, we acknowledge this moral standard. And the fact that yes, if we can live perfectly in line with that we would experience peace in our lives and in the world.
And yeah, Oprah's right, we have that similarity. And then, also, there's another similarity that we kind of agree that we fail to live that out perfectly. And when that happens then it leads to chaos, in a way. And so those are the similarities that really formed the foundation, the base, of that mountain, but they don't quite all lead all the way to the top. And so that's what I kind of cut the base of that mountain in half and share two significant differences. The first one is that these different religions are actually leading to different mountain tops.
And I start with Buddhism, I believe, because it actually leads to no God at all. Now, I used to have a roommate, from Vietnam, who was Buddhist, and had never really met Buddhists and studied Buddhism. And so, it was a surprise to me when he told me that most Buddhists are actually atheists. Like really, you know, because we kind of have in our country and our culture, and maybe a misconception maybe, okay. You know, some people call Jesus God, some people call Mohammed God. And so in Buddhism, they call him Buddha. Buddha is God. And that's just a misconception. Because Buddhism actually doesn't require it. There's no necessity of God.
And so when you follow the Buddhist path, it doesn't lead to a mountaintop whether there's any god at the top of that mountain at all. And so I kind of walk through the different religions, you know, Buddhism leads to no God, Hinduism leads to many gods, the New Age way of thinking leads to this idea that everything is God. And I realize it's simplified the for the illustration. And then you have the the three monotheistic religions at the end, that even though they believe in one God to get to that God; is it through Mohammed in the Quran? Is it through the Talmud or Moses? Is it through Jesus?
And so that's the first difference that really kind of debunks that mountain theory-that all paths lead to the same God. But then the second thing is, the second difference, is how do religions respond to the fact that we don’t have peace because we aren't perfect? How do religions respond to the chaos? What can be done about it? And so, again, from an outside perspective, in a way that almost appears to be a third similarity, because religions are about tilting the scale; outweighing your evil with good. And so it's this works based, performance oriented approach-Karma-you know, that sort of thing. But when you look closely, even though it's the same mentality the particulars are still particular to that religion.
It may still be the essence of the 10 commandments, but it also may be unique to, for example, in Mormonism, you might need to be, you know, getting baptized for your dead ancestors or becoming married in the temple or going on a mission, you know. So that you don't just go to the lowest level of heaven, but the celestial glory. You know, and there are these particulars that seem to be similar, but yet they're different. But what's unique about true Christianity is that it's not based on obtaining peace through our merits. Because, you know, we believe that we can't appease the justice of God by our merits. Hence the need for Jesus who was this perfect person who was our substitute and paid the debt for us, and we trust. So then at the end of the talk, that's when I touch on where do good works fit in Christianity?
Seth Price 31:25
There's so much I want to touch on there. So part of the reason that I think a lot of people like this show is I will ask a question and give all the space in the world for answers. And then I usually don't, I dig further as I need to, but I like to let people wrestle with the questions that they would want to ask you themselves. Because I think we all learn something as we use those questions. So what did you learn specifically? Like, what did you so I'm gonna use a quote from Barbara Brown Taylor like, which is like you know, I can see truth in Islam and I can find truth in all these other religions, but it's Jesus that I come home to I think that's actually a explicit quote from our most recent book, although she's a prolific writer, so maybe I missed a book doesn't matter.
So as you're talking with these 50 people and from what I remember on the slides, like not all of them are Christian, many of them aren't.
Tyler 32:20
The majority were not.
Seth Price 32:21
Yeah. So what did you learn about God through their religion? As their talking or answering your questions, and you're like, you know, that actually, is beautiful. And that sounds entirely Christ-like, you know, where you're like, that's new. But that sounds like Jesus to me. Like, is there anything that you wish you left and you're like, I'm gonna have to chew on that.
Tyler 32:41
Yeah. You know, I would have to, I know that I learned things. Absolutely. As far as giving you a list of specific things that would be hard for me being put on the spot, but I can easily go back through those interviews for you. I do remember one of the people I interviewed was a Jewish rabbi who became a friend. And it was just so refreshing to hear him speak about God. Of course, Jews and Christians view God as the same God, of the Old Testament and kind of part ways at the New Testament where Jesus fits into the picture.
But just hearing them speak about this God that I believe in, and I love, I believe loves me. He's my Creator. He's my parent. And, you already mentioned, you know, he, she, whatever, but it's our parent, it's our Creator. God and then God describes himself as our father. And there are those mother passages. And God made people in his image, you know, both male and female And so it was refreshing. And it touched my heart and it drew me closer to God seeing peoples sincerity, seeing people's devotion. I mean, I met people who honestly were more devout than I, it kind of steps on your toe, and it kind of challenges you. And, you know, it drew me closer to God wanted me to know God more, to be more devoted. And just hearing the different perspectives.
Seth Price 34:42
You said a phrase a minute ago, and I want to, I want you to go further on that for me. And then I do want to talk about your art. Because I went to school for art, and then I realized I hated it and I couldn't make any money at it. And Sallie Mae doesn't care if you make any money because you have to pay those loans back. So I still like to draw a lot like, um, it doesn't matter anyway. So, a minute ago, you said true Christianity, you know, the goal of true Christianity or the heart of true Christian, I can't remember exactly what you yeah said. What do you mean when you say true Christianity? Like what are you defining as that? Because I feel like that is a…two really big words.
Tyler 35:20
Yeah, you're right.
Well, let me just go back to 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul said to the church in Corinth, he refers to the gospel as first importance. And then he defines the gospel as the death burial resurrection of Jesus.
So I love that phrase, because I believe that if something's true, it's true. So all truth is equally true. But not all truth is equally important. Some truth is more important than other truths. And here in 1 Corinthians, he said, this is of first importance, of most importance. And so true Christianity, I believe, is the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
And so that's what the apostles preached in the book of Acts. I love the idea of looking at the end of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, because it's almost you know, what people say on their deathbed when they have a little time to think it really represents what's most important to them. I actually had that experience myself two years ago, almost to the month, where I was in the hospital for two and a half weeks. I had some blood clots (and) my kidneys were failing. It's crazy. I had perfect health my whole life. And so yeah, I had that scary conversation with my wife, it was kind of like my will, you know? Like if I die, here's what I want for our kids. Here's what I want for you my wife.
And so when I look at Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I love to just study the last things Jesus said. And he was empowering these 11 guys to go into the world and share this message. And so then when you come to Acts, it's the apostles acting out, what we call the Great Commission it is their actions. And so everything that we read them doing shows us how they interpreted Jesus last words. Because they went out and did what he said to do. And so I love making note of what did the apostles preach and noting what did they not preach? And so what they preach was the death, burial, and resurrection. Everywhere they went starting Jerusalem, you know, Judea, Samaria, the uttermost parts of the world Acts 1:8, that was their, their, their plan. And so that every chance they had to talk to preach to this audience, Jew, Gentile in Athens, Mars Hill, it was all about Jesus.
And so if you make note on what they preached and that’d take up like one page in the notebook, and then you can devote the rest of the notebook to what they didn't preach. And pretty much what you would have is Romans through Revelation, because that's where that belongs. Our relationship with God isn't determined by our right beliefs that is contain in Romans through Revelation. It's really our belief and embrace, in in that message that's preached throughout the book of Acts. Which is the result of what Jesus told him to preach. And so just keeping all that in perspective, I know this is a long answer, but I love Ephesians 4. Because Ephesians 4 talks about two types of unity. And this was just such an epiphany when I first heard this.
So Ephesians 4 opens up by talking about what's called the unity of the Spirit. And it talks about that as a present reality in Ephesus. Paul tells them, hey, you have the unity of the Spirit. In other words, you have the Spirit. She has the spirit. Everyone in this church has the Holy Spirit. And then he says, guard that. Keep that. That is what makes you in relationship with God. That's what makes you in relationship with other people who have a relationship with God. You are united through that spirit because of your faith in one Lord, one faith, one baptism right there in Ephesians 4.
Then he goes on in Ephesians 4 to talk about he uses a different phrase is called the unity of the faith. And that was not a present reality, because he says, Jesus gave gifts to the church. Some of those gifts are evangelists, and teachers, and pastors. And the purpose of those gifts is to build up and equip the church until we arrive at the unity of the faith. We have not arrived at that you unity. And so the danger is, is when we blur those lines, and we try to have unity with people on things other than Jesus. And we act like all this unity of the faith category, which is everything beyond Jesus, is equally as important.
And so we draw lines and we create different, you know the whole history of denominations and attitudes have changed. But that was a big lesson for me to learn, because I had been the guy who mixed that up and who viewed people not as true Christians and true Christianity that was beyond Jesus stuff. It was more in the particulars of what do I believe about women's roles and worship and the end times and miracles and an on goes the list. Those are important and we have the New Testament for a reason. But we can't base our fellowship with other Christians on things that God doesn't base his fellowship with us on. Yeah, so yeah, hopefully that answers your question.
Seth Price 43:10
I like it um I want to ask for your patience one more time. I think he probably just has growing pains um, he's like, I'm gonna grab him some Tylenol (my son) real quick if you can give me 80 seconds and then I’ll be back.
Tyler 42:33
So here we are…is this gonna be edited? (laughs)
He said he didn't know how to edit video. So we'll see what happens. It's just you and me. Let me show you a picture, check this out.
I'm a big Norman Rockwell fan. Here's a picture of Norman Rockwell painting Bing Crosby. Two of my favorite guys. I love his music and love his art and here they are all together. One painting the other. That was for a movie called Stagecoach. And, fun fact, Norman Rockwell was an extra in that movie. He played a drunkard in a bar. So you're going to edit that part out? (I come back to the mic)
Seth Price 44:19
Do what?
Tyler 44:20
Are you going to edit that part out?
Seth Price 44:23
I have no idea. Not out of the video. I don't know how. But yeah, I’ll edit it out of the audio (I didn’t :) ).
The first one I ever had to edit out (was) a kid. I record a lot. So I work at a bank. And so like I will record like three on like Presidents Day because I have the kids here too. And so I was interviewing, he’s a guy in Texas, Luke Norsworthy, about a book.
Tyler 44:03
Yeah, I know of him.
Seth Price 44:04
Yeah. And so we were talking and joking because we're both from Texas having a good time. And I forget what I needed to do, but I was trying to talk to the kids like, without saying anything, and, and he was like, “Guys, I'm just going to narrate this for you. So Seth is like telling his son to steal third, but…no he's asking him to bunt!”. I forget exactly what he said. But he's like, trying to give … and I was like you're such a punk. Don't make me laugh. He's like, inside, let him you know, whatever. It happens. It's life but I'm not editing it out of this because I don't know how to edit out of the video.
Um, yeah, I want to pivot to art before I do. I want to respond to a bit. You were talking about when we draw a lines about dogma. And so people will sometimes ask me, like, what is the whole point of Christianity? Although I think my answer is slightly different. My answer is always when we draw lines whatever side of the line I'm standing on whoever's being oppressed that's the side that Christ is on. And that's a problem.
Wherever I drew the line and they are the problem, Christ always appeared on the other side of the line throughout Scripture, wherever you said you couldn't be-that's where he was. And so the goal for me of Christianity is, how do I either move the line, remove the line, build a bridge over the line, jump on the other side of the line, even if I'm uncomfortable, and just love on those people. Because wherever I draw lines, that's where Jesus always is. But that's it for me.
Tyler 45:32
A good mentor of mine, once said, if you're gonna determine that someone's not a Christian who claims to be or, you know, there's the whole subject and then testament of disfellowship where a Christian is actually held accountable for sin. And you know, if they're not repentant, what should the church do? That's a whole topic. But then there's also like, church Christians who disagree theologically, you might have one church that just says, yeah, you know, we don't take that stance here. And if you're going to be divisive, then you can just go. So my mentor said, you know, if you ever gonna determine someone needs to go, it better be with a tear in your eye. And he said, sometimes we condemn a person to hell on less evidence than a judge would condemn someone to a life in prison.
And I always remembered that, like is there a tear in awry or we just these proud people? Like I act the right way, I believe the right way they don't so you know so I can’t fellowship with them.
Seth Price 46:41
So there's many ways to read scripture and so I can make scripture be “right” for whatever way I need it to be. I mean, history is littered with that from you know, abolitionists to it from everything. Like you can make it be whatever it needs to be. And Heaven and Hell are much larger topics. Oddly enough, those are The most popular topics of the show; a couple on atonement, four or five on Heaven and Hell, and those continued to be the most popular episodes. Which my views of heaven and hell are entirely, I don't know, they're not normal. I think they are normal, but they're definitely not the normal in Virginia, anyway. So yeah, so I want to talk to you a bit about the art. I like that you're drawing pictures of people, but I don't know how you're focusing on them. While you're doing that. What did you just like snap a picture and do it later? Like, how does that actually work?
Tyler 47:32
Yes, you got it.
Seth Price 47:35
Yeah, because I can see you going to talk to me about God? Mm hmm. (mimes drawing)
Tyler 47:38
Yeah. Well, I was actually, so I recorded the interviews. And then I would go later on, and I would type out what they said; which is kind of tedious. I’m sure there is software nowadays, it could have done that for me, but…
Seth Price 48:43
I totally understand that I've transcribed 70 something episodes of this show the goal is to transcribe them all. Yeah, yeah,
Tyler 48:50
It got to the point where I would pay college students 10 bucks to do it for me. And they liked that. So I recorded it, I would type it. And then I would end the interview by taking their picture. And then so later on in my own time, I would draw that portrait.
Seth Price 49:12
So why? What made you want to do that, like, how does that affect the interview? Like why does that need to happen for you, the portrait?
Tyler 49:20
Well, I once had a friend of mine and old youth minister, tell me in high school, when I went off to college, he says, hey, you have a gift of art. Don't bury it. And he was kind of using that metaphor of the whole you know, met the master or whatever you would call him who gave his servants some talents.
Seth Price 49:47
Yes, one person invested, another person did little less stuff, and then one guy just buried it because I know that you'd be so upset if I lost it. And he was like what's wrong with you? You took no risk. This is not what I meant to do.
Tyler 49:55
So my friend was just saying, you know, God given you a gift, don't bury it. And so I had done some art school. And then when I went from high school, before college, I did a two and a half year, apprentice-missionary programs. I lived in Samoa, in the South Pacific, for over year, and then spent six months in Sydney, Australia. And yeah, so years went by without drawing, doing anything artistic. And one day I just remembered, maybe I was reading that story, and was like, I buried it, buried it, I gotta dig it up.
And so when I came up with that idea of interviewing people, it really was like, how can I bring together some of my favorite things? And so I love questions. I love coffee. I love art. And back in high school. I come across this small picture book by Picasso, Pablo Picasso, and it was these one line drawings. One was a horse, one was the dog, one was the clown, they were very simple. And so one line one continuous line is where you just put your pen on the page, and you draw without taking your pen off the page, which is very challenging. And so I did those in high school and loved it. I still have the first one I ever did of this woman serenading a little girl playing the violin.
And so I thought, you know, that's really unique, you don't see that very often. And I'd really like to just practice doing portraits like that. And so it was neat because I really think that the artwork helped the interviews. First of all to get set up in the first place. Because when I asked people whether it was in person, or mostly through email, and I told him I'd be doing that I think some people were just really fascinated by that. And then when they get that portrait, I would send them a copy. Just the other day like last week, I was on LinkedIn, and I, you know, like kind of like friend suggests people and somebody's profile. Yeah. So yeah, there was an old old friend I interviewed, haven't talked to him since, and he had my one line portrait as his picture on LinkedIn. So people, I think it helps to them to say yes to the interview. It also helped people want to read the interviews, because they like seeing the art as well.
Seth Price 52:27
Are those still out there
Tyler 52:31
No, not publicly. I still have all the files and everything. And I incorporated, so as you know, the the artwork I quoted a lot of those people in the TEDx talk and showed the arc of those portraits. I practice really hard just the other day I drew Justin Bieber for the heck of it. I am was hoping maybe to send it to him through Twitter with the link to my TED talk, you know, because you may know of his recent profession of faith and just kind of working through his childhood concepts of Jesus into a more founded, personally investigated, conclusion about Jesus. And so I think my talk would resonate with him, so I'll draw him and maybe he'll find it and see it and watch it, share it and well, then 100 million people in the world would hear about it if he’d tweet it. So, so far, he hasn't found it. Maybe someone will send it to him and maybe he'll want to put it on a T shirt and sell it at his counter.
But anyway, just drawing Justin Bieber that took me seven hours. Because I had rough drafts and sketches and it wasn't just that I sat down and scribbled out that line, but you know, I planned it, I planned the line. So that actually looks like the person and involved some measurements and things. But, I really enjoy it. And I know I'm giving you more than you asked for. But I actually recently got in touch with a studio in California that has a licensing agreement with DC Comics. And they have decided to work with me, hire me, to partner with me in drawing DC comic characters with one line. So we're still working out the details. But that's super cool, to again, uproot that gift that was buried in and actually use it or for God, use it for good. Which is really what all of us are expected to do with the things that God entrusts to us, you know, tearing down that whole secular/sacred divide, that dichotomy, and saying, “Hey, you know, I have this gift of singing, or you know, whatever, building stuff and I can find a way to, you know, sew or bake and use it for good”.
Seth Price 55:13
So my son had a basketball tournament, which they didn't win second place that happens though. Regular season champs tournament runner ups. So my daughter my seven year old, she colors (everything) if you give her a pinch of color she’ll the wall, but she's really good actually. Like she draws pictures. She's extremely artistic. They just had like career day yesterday and she made like an apron with art all over it like that's what she wants to do is art or teach art or this is what she wants to do loves it. And being that so I don't know what it's called, but it's where you take a pen that will lay down ink, real easy, and you basically just do the dots. I don't know if I don't know what it's my art teacher called it pointillism. I don't think that's actually, that might be what it’s called. So I did that a lot in high school just because it takes so much time. And just a lot of patience, which I don't have. And so it stretched me.
But she brought like a coloring book, we go to the book fair, and you'll find like a massive 400 page thing full of just, you know, unicorns or a river with the sun coming up like just a lot of hard solid lines. So I was like, rip me one out and I'll color it and give me some random colors. And she gave me one with a sunrise coming up. And I did that while we were there waiting for the other game to finish. And at the end, she was like, how do you make that look like that? Because I had blended all the colors because I'm doing one dot at a time and she's like, “That's not fair. You know how to do all this stuff”, and I'm like do you want me to show you? But it's fun. Yeah, art is fun. So I had referenced at the beginning that I wanted to ask you a question because I'm asking it to everybody. And you've alluded to this but I'd like you to go bigger if you can, because there will be people listening that are not Christian. It's one of my things that I love. They're atheists that listen, there are people that are not Christians that listen, there's also Christians that listen but it doesn't matter. So when you're saying the word God, so you're talking with a Hebrew friend, or Jewish friend, a Muslim friend, Sikh friend, somebody in the elevator, and you've got just a few minutes, and you're like, yeah, so I want to try to tell you about God. And here's what I mean. What do you say?
Tyler 57:18
Well, yeah, I already didn't mention that I believe God is our Creator. I mean, I'll even ask I have three little girls. When they were all, so their ages, almost four, and then six, and eight. And when they're all around the age of three, I would ask them, “Do you know who God is?” And it's fun just to hear how they answer that. But sometimes they just say, can you tell me? And so I would always the first thing I would say is God made you. He's the one who made you, that’s who God is. And he also loves you. And so I love to keep it that simple. You know, God is the one who made me, knows me and loves me.
But, you know, on the college campus to go a little deeper, I noticed something even in my interviews Seth, I would ask (one of the questions I would ask) is what comes to mind when you think about God? And so I got a lot of diverse responses and even people who were atheists, I would say, well, have you always not believed in God? And a lot of times, people say, well, I was raised, you know, this or that, Catholic, whatever. And I said, well, what would come to mind when you were a child? And so inevitably it comes out in a lot of times, it's actually a negative picture when people think about God. And then interestingly, I would ask them what comes to mind when you think about Jesus? And, actually almost all, if not 100% of those responses, whether people actually believe he's a real historical figure or not, it was positive. And so it was really neat to be able to say, Jesus said, in John 14:9, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. And so in other words, he's saying if you want to know what God's like, follow me around. Listen to what I say. Watch what I do.
Like you were saying before, look at the the people that I defended, look at how I reacted in death, in grief, look at the things I stood for or oppose. And look how I respond to people, every glimpse of me that you get is showing you a glimpse of God. Now, for me to conclude that, you know, is not based on me and my belief that the New Testament is historically reliable, which is not based on circular reasoning, because it says so, but, you know, applying the laws of historiography. The criteria that historians use to determine did this really happen? A lot of people don't even know what that criteria is. And since a long time I didn't either. But earlier, you were asking, like, what did this these interviews lead to for myself? And one of those things is it drove me to apologetics. Just like the people in my interviews when I asked him a question they didn't know, they wanted to know sometimes they'd asked me questions that I didn't know. And it drove me to want to know. And it really led me to apologetics, you know, what are the reasons we have to trust the New Testament, for example? And so when Jesus says, if you seen me you've seen the Father that's coming from the mouth of a man who fulfilled messianic prophecy, who would go on to resurrect from the dead, who led the sinless life. And so he says, look at me, and you'll see what God's like that was always fun to tell people who have a positive view of Jesus and a negative view of God. To say, hey, Jesus said, I came to reveal who God is. And there's a verse in Hebrews 1 about how he is the example representation. So that's a little bit more depth fun on your question.
Seth Price 1:01:52
I want to say one more thing to that. I get that response quite a bit, and then it usually will come. So I'm not fundamentalist in any way, shape or form. If you've ever listened any of the other episodes for anyone else listening as well, I'm definitely…if there's anyone listening that hasn’t before and they are like “lets listen because Tyler is on!” Listen I'll have people throw proof texts at me. And then I will always respond. Jesus also said, "you keep searching the scriptures in them thinking that you'll find God but you're not, because you're not seeing me. Yeah, because there's multiple versions of the Bible, multiple versions of the New Testament. There's just multiple versions. But that's an entire(ly) whole different two hour conversation. And I want to give you back to your wife and thank her for her time.
So where would you point people? So you’ve got the YouTube but where do they go to just kind of laser focus into all the places for you?
Tyler 1:02:54
Yeah, thanks for asking. So B Tyler Ellis. Like I mentioned behind the scenes, Tyler Ellis is already taken by Perry Ellison’s daughter who started her fashion line.
Seth Price 1:03:08
Just buy it from her. It's fine.
Tyler 1:03:07
Yeah, yeah, right. My name is Tyler. My first name is Brent, and so I found that B Tyler Ellis was available. And so if that's my handle on Twitter, and LinkedIn, but also BTylerEllis.com. You can go there, find the TEDx talk, and have a speaker kit people can find. I'm working on the discussion guide for the the TEDx.
Seth Price 1:03:40
That’s fun
Tyler 1:03:41
Thank you so much.
Seth Price 1:03:43
It is hard to believe that the year is more than a quarter gone actually that's not that hard to believe. The older that I get time seems to just accelerate. It's insane. I don't even know that April happened. Like, I know that it should have happened. But I feel like it didn't. The world's a crazy mess right now, there are many, many ways that you can support the show. So you can tell a friend, you can rate and review all that stuff, you can shoot me some feedback at CanISayThisAtchurch@gmail.com. Or you can join the 55 other people again, the goal is about 100. And then the goal will get bigger. That's just how goals work. But you can join people like Shane Wright, that have popped over onto Patreon. And there's a lot going on, and you get discounts on a bunch of things in the store, extra versions of the show, blog posts a whole bunch of things there. And you should do that. So go to the website, click on the button, make it happen. Tell your friends. And so again, this week the Salt of the Sound and they're beautiful music has become the backbone of this show. And I'm so thankful for them, their music and their willingness to allow me to use it.
I'll talk with you next week.
Be blessed everybody