Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
A.D. Thomason 0:08
This is kind of what we do, you know? We make people think that they have to come under a banner, a culture, a language. We don't give them the permission to say, hey, follow Jesuha, follow Christ, and let your cultural expression be another expanse in God's kingdom. We’ve got to put the sign, we got to put the banner; and that comes to a lot of cultural things. So that's what I'm saying what permission to be black.
Seth Price 0:43
It's almost time to start. But before I do a brief message from some ads that help support the show, be right back.
Hey there, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Seth. This is the Can I Say This At Church podcast. And honestly, I'm a little amped up today as I record this intro for a lot of reasons. And I may actually do an episode specifically on those reasons, but we're not there today. Today, I am honored to begin the show by saying thank you to both Chris Bayer, and Shelli Riggs for becoming the newest supporters over on Patreon. People like you, all of y'all are tremendously helpful, you have no idea how. And if you get anything from these shows, consider supporting the show, it's well worth it, I try to make it worth it. And I have plans to make that support even more worthwhile with some special series’ that are going to be released at least for a while there alone. No other place to get them. There's currently a series there on Oscar Romero that I will link to right here in the show notes, but also right here in the transcripts.
Which is another thing that because patrons exists, so many humans, I see it on the website, are able to read and share and quote and discuss and partake in the episodes that can't hear. The transcripts are tremendously popular and they're also extremely useful both to create and to reference back (to) later, and those exists because of patrons. So consider doing all of that. Now, A.D. Thomason is a fantastic person, but he does a lot of things. You're gonna see a lot of references to different things throughout the episode. And I was ecstatic to have him on the show. I'm still a little upset that he has no respect for Big Boi in the group of OutKast. And you're probably wondering, why is Outkast, the music group, why are they even on a podcast about God? And I'm glad that you asked because right now I'm about to roll the tape and we'll see together talk to you in a bit.
Seth Price 3:17
A.D. Thompson, how are you man? Welcome to the show. I'm excited that you're here. We did it. We did it!
A.D. Thomason 3:24
We made it happen! Good to be here.
Seth Price 3:27
Yeah. So there will be many people. I was one of these people that when your publisher reached out to me and sent me your book, I was like, I don't know what this is. But the cover is what struck me I was like, what is this? And then I was like who is this? And so I kind of went down a rabbit hole. And I'm certain that many of the listeners have not done that. And so like what, who, is, our, Adam? Like what what are the things that make you you?
A.D. Thomason 3:54
Yeah, I will say a diverse exploration of humanity to understand the fullness of God, that's the easiest way I could say it. Born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, in the inner city, broken home, a lot of typicals that you would assume of a black man growing up in the inner city of Detroit environment. So broken home, dad leads to home when I'm 12, six months later, my mom is severely shot five times. She survives, barely, but she survives. We had to go to school the next day. My caretakers told us because “we shouldn't put our life on hold because something bad happens”. So this is this is like all checking all the boxes of traumatic movie. So at 12 and you fast forward. I went down to Savannah College of Art and Design, so art college. So you talk about this inner city, hard, you don't stop and process emotion situations. Now you're going to art college, where “everything is everything” (sacrastically), you know, (we both bust out laughing) like we sound like ‘98 right.
So I was like, “What? Where am I? What am I doing? You know, like, What? What is going on?” And then I’ll add another one in there because it's not in the book. And then at 19 I had the privilege of playing on a pro basketball team in Palestine.
Seth Price 5:29
Really?
A.D. Thomason 5:31
Yeah, so my viewpoint and appreciation for God's, I would just say creation, is somewhat like Paul. I would say, I've always been struck by Paul's mentality to “become all things to all people that he might win”. So that's the best way I could sum it up.
Seth Price 5:48
Do you think it was the trip to Palestine that shifted your views on God or would that’d happen anyway?
A.D. Thomason 5:55
I personally do. I do think it was the trip to Palestine. Because I just remember distinctly in 2000 how propagated my mind was from the media saying “this is what Palestinians are.” Throwing rocks, blowing up busses, things like that. So even when I was gonna go, I went with a little naivety to like, “Yeah, man, I'm just gonna go you know, for the Lord!”
Seth Price 6:27
Play basketball for the Lord!
A.D. Thomason 6:28
Right‽ And everybody's like, “Oh, man, you're not nervous. You know? And I was like, “Nah, man. No, I guess you know, it is gonna be what it's gonna be”.
Seth Price 6:39
What did you play? Like, what part of the basketball team like what is basketball look like in Palestine?
A.D. Thomason 6:44
Bro, it is one of the most intense environments you've ever been in. Just think of some like off the radar crowded, everybody's there. You know, everybody's hinged upon each other. I mean, they celebrate anything like free throws.
Seth Price 7:06
So it's fun.
A.D. Thomason 7:08
Oh, is it is electric!
Seth Price 7:12
I didn't even know they had teams there. That's fantastic. Yeah, I like that nugget. I like that. You should put that in the book.
A.D. Thomason 7:19
It was another one. So I didn't know if I should repeat like my previous works.
Seth Price 7:24
I didn't read the other one.
I got so many more questions about that, but I'm not gonna. Okay. Because that's…that's insane. Um, so, I actually do have a quote. So the book that you wrote is Permission to be Black: My Journey with Jay-Z and Jesus. But for those that haven't read the book yet, you should buy the book because we're gonna talk about the book and probably going to make more sense if you have the text in front of you. But there seems to be an overwhelming ratio of Lauryn Hill over Jay-Z. Yes. I'm curious how Jay-Z made the cover when Lauryn Hill is like the meat. Like what happened there?
A.D. Thomason 7:57
If I'm being sincerely honest, it wasn't like a sexy tagline “with Lauryn Hill”. You know, that's really like, you know, my journey with the Lord and Lauryn Hill is just like, nahhh. And metaphorically, I'll be honest with you I listened, growing up, I listened most to rap music. So to me, Jay-Z is kind of like this moniker, this ideology. You know?
Seth Price 8:24
Yeah. Now that's fair. So I think, based on some of the references that you have, and I can't remember exactly which ones I think we're similar in age, so I'm almost 39. And so rap music is also the music that and it's now also the music that my son listens to.
A.D. Thomason 8:43
Yes, come on!
Seth Price 8:45
But it's not the rap on the radio. He listens to like Propaganda. He really likes Andy Mineo. He likes Wordsplayed. And he's really enjoying Nobigdyl lately. And that's because I fell in love with Nobigdyl. And so we just like to play with the rhymes. I don't know if you know who any of those people are.
A.D. Thomason 9:01
Yo! Oh, yeah. I know all of them.
Seth Price 9:03
Yeah. Probably Nobigdyl is his favorite. But Jay-Z for me, like I've got that album that starts with it's a hard knock life. I figured it's a blue album. It's a bluish. Oh, yeah.
A.D. Thomason 9:12
Oh yeah Vol II, so you talking about him in the suit.
Seth Price 9:16
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was my entry into music when I got my car. That's the first thing that I bought was that.
A.D. Thomason 9:23
Oh yeah, that's a good entry.
Seth Price 9:25
Yeah. And then I realized that I had some crappy speakers and so I then went on to go...
A.D. Thomason 9:30
Go get some subs and some 10’s?
Seth Price 9:31
I did! I bought a 10”. One 10” sub, and then I realized that it was too much. It was too much!
A.D. Thomason 9:40
Oh, where'd you grow up?
Seth Price 9:41
Texas, Midland Texas.
A.D. Thomason 9:45
Okay. Yeah, so you bang it in Midland!
Seth Price 9:48
Oh man, in my little single cab truck. It was loud. But I enjoyed it, right? It was fun. Yeah, I still love the music. Now I just turned it down because I'm old and you know, it just hurts my head. Anyway. So your book, man, I liked it. I like the stories. But I also like your voice in it like I can remember when you're talking about going to that college, the art college and the first time we've seen like a naked woman or like “Yooooo!!!!!”
A.D. Thomason 10:13
Yoooooooo!!!!
Seth Price 10:13
So I enjoyed the voice in there. But I want to dig into some of the concepts of it. So you talk about and I've got some highlights here Is it all right out of if I read your book back to you. So you talk about generational trauma. And it's weaved throughout the book. But for many people, I don't think they understand what generational trauma is, like, outside of like “dad was an alcoholic. So now I'm an alcoholic”. I think that's what most people mean, when they say that, or maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong. But what is that? And like how does that impact both your faith and your life? Like what is that and how is it passed down?
A.D. Thomason 10:48
Yeah, so I would say generational trauma, I would say is they are strongholds, they don't have to necessarily be sinned. So that's why I love that you're bringing that up. They are the strongholds and pain points that are passed down from generation and generation. So an easy one in America could be, with African Americans, I tell the story of a woman who is pregnant, with said child. Now imagine her being pregnant, and then the slave rading happens, right? So all this stress that's going down on her body. And I build it out. And I ask people a question. I use this at a at a Yale discussion, I just say, “So do y'all think when she's going through all that stress; by the time the child is born, like running for a live slave dungeons, Middle Passage, auction blocks, seeing her husband gets sold off or traded? Do you feel like the child didn't feel any of that stress?” And 100% of people go like “no the child felt it.”
And I go exactly, that's how generational pain points are passed down at the cellular level. Right? And that was explained to me about counselor in another book Body Keeps the Score. And so a lot of people don't realize, even if you're not black, if you could just ask your mom, “Hey, Mom, what was going on when you were pregnant with me?” That'll show you what is passed down at the cellular, chemical, level.
And so when you have a people group that's been terrorized and you put the pregnancies there terrorize, terrorize, terrorize. You know, slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, sharecropper, all this stuff. People (are) like why, why is this people groups, so like, you know, hypertension, high stress, high blood pressure? It is because those things happened a the people and they haven't been able to process it.
Seth Price 12:41
Since reading about it in your book, like, I'll be honest, like, I really struggle with that concept. Because I like to think that I'm something fresh, something new. Like, that doesn't define me, like, my family doesn't define me, I'm in control of this. But do you think that that's possible? Like, I do you get that tension? Where I'm like, no, that's not like, that's not the only thing I'm worried about for generational trauma, like is cancer, like, you know, when I look at, like, my dad passed away of cancer recently, at 58. You know, and, you know, and then just different things. So, like, is that like a valid…like, I guess I'm asking, like, is that…is that a fair critique of that?
A.D. Thomason 13:21
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's a fair critique, it's a fair dialogue. I would just, you know, tell people always consider, you know, cancer, again, it's a cellular thing. You know, cancer, leukemia, sickle cell anemia. All these things that are diseases and ailments, there are still cellular things that are passed down. And so when I say generational trauma and pain points, emotional pain points. Emotion is just another cellular thing that is part of our body, right? Like, I was looking at recently the definition of psychosis, and it's interesting, it's very intriguing the definition of psychosis. It literally says, “a person who feels and experiences a reality but it's not based in real life”. But in their body, they say in their body and in their mind, it's 100% real. And it can be so real, that it actually changes the cellular structure. You see what I'm saying?
And that's what is so wild, right. So I have a friend who we were playing basketball. He was so nervous that he took a crap in his pants. Like his body just couldn’t, like for game like, it is a basketball game.
Seth Price 15:00
He's in the middle of the game?
A.D. Thomason 15:02
We're about to play. We're about to play a big game. Many we let him have it! But that's just a fear of emotion.
Seth Price 15:10
(Laughing) That's awful. I feel bad for…I don't feel bad. I feel bad for laughing. But I don’t feel bad.
A.D. Thomason 15:19
Don’t we still mess with him.
Seth Price 15:22
I realized what it was; the reason that I realized we were similar age. So the word “cheat code” has a different word now, then we'll wait that we would use it, but I can remember Cheat Codes like, that's a Nintendo thing. And maybe that like Game Genie. Like you would plug it like, yeah.
A.D. Thomason 15:33
(Laughs) Yes!!! Oh, my God, yes! That is what is in my mind! Game Genie and Nintendo.
Seth Price 15:43
Yeah. So that's when I realized I'm like, oh, the way that he's using this word. There's only a handful of years that like, my son would not use it that way. He would use it in a different way.
A.D. Thomason 15:53
How old is your son?
Seth Price 15:54
He's 11, he’ll be 12 months. So yeah, I mean, it would have meaning and it would be similar, but not the way that you use it. So what is that I want to dive into those because you've got cheat codes, tens and dozens of them like mix throughout. So why why that metaphor, as we look at tackling and “redefining blackness”, I think is the word you use. And in a way that throughout the book, like, why choose that metaphor?
A.D. Thomason 16:18
Yeah that's good. Like, like you said, my generation, you know, for us video games was, you know, Nintendo, Nintendo 64. But the true Cheat Codes first came with Nintendo before the Game Genie—Contra, you know you get 30 men. (We both laugh) You know I still remember the cheat code to get to Mike Tyson on Mike Tyson's Punch Out.
Seth Price 16:44
Oh, wait, there's a cheat code for that.
A.D. Thomason 16:45
Yeah. 0073735963.
Seth Price 16:49
Hey! I've got it. So two years ago for Christmas. My wife got me like the Nintendo redid the Nintendo you know, and it's like a couple 100 bucks. And it came like 50 games that Nintendo owns the rights to. Tyson's on it. I'm doing that, like I'm leaving from here. And I'm going up there and I'm gonna beat him. Because right now, right now, I'm stuck on a guy that I always struggle with that Kong guy like the big fat dude with the with the with the anyway, doesn't matter. We're way off topic. So yeah, so yeah, cheat code, like, yeah, why does that work?
A.D. Thomason 17:21
Yeah, that metaphor.
I thought in general, people feel like their narrative, their journey. It's an approach to life, right? And, you know, if we are playing video games or playing a board game, cards, whatever. You know, the mind can always think like, yo, is there a way to get ahead? Right.
So for me, the metaphor, I believe, is that black folks never had these approaches, these lenses, these ideologies, to kind of get ahead when it comes to their humanity, their emotions. And so when I started going to counseling, it was…the dude was so wise. I was like, “Yo, I'm cheating”. Like, it really felt like I was cheating. My body, literally, my body will feel guilty as I know, how am I able to have this information? And those who grew up with it, you start thinking about my my parents generation, and then my grandparents. And they would have killed for this.
I remember interviewing my granddad, about the Great Depression. And I just remember, it was such a hard time. And I was the first person in his life to ask him this phrase “and how did you feel”? He looked at me like “what do you feel? What is that? What are you talk about? How did you feel?”
So that's why I kind of use that metaphor.
Seth Price 19:01
Yeah, is there a longing this for you to get on Craigslist and find a Regal just to fill that hole in your heart? Like just to buy it even if it doesn't run?
A.D. Thomason 19:22
Yes, (laughs) it is funny. Yes, I looked oh, Craigslist. I looked in Phonenix. I looked being in Atlanta. Oh man I looked!
Seth Price 19:25
Didn’t find one?
A.D. Thomason 19:26
Not one that I think is worth buying.
Seth Price 19:30
I read you like I can hear you in there. Like when you talk to your dad like that. And that's my house, my car. Like That was my that was my car.
A.D. Thomason 19:42
Oh man I loved the Regal man, ya’ll don’t understand.
Seth Price 19:44
So, cheat code #10. So there's a part in here that I'd like you to rip apart a bit. So you say
Don Furious told me the work to ignore and not name the pain is actually harder to do than dealing with the pain and becoming whole
and then what I highlighted is
you are comfortable with the routine of pain.
And so that's what I really like you to rip apart like being comfortable with a routine of pain.
But you're convinced through the code of blackness, that blocking out the pain is freedom and a sign of strength. And you'll never be free until your entire story can be a communication of hope.
So like if you could like just ripping apart a bit, you know, being comfortable with routine of pain. And then what is a communication of hope?
A.D. Thomason 20:22
Yeah, so foundationally we go back to 12 years old, being comfortable with the routine, the pain is saying, man that you know, that didn't hurt that pops left; or that didn't hurt that my mom was shot five times. Like you just stuffed it down, or that didn't hurt the day, you know that said bully, you know, trying to fight me for no reason. You just push it down.
And you ignore because in that environment it is so suffocating and so in front of you. The ideology is to communicate that to anybody, to show that to anybody is like blood to piranhas in the water. Right? So you manage it, it's kind of like when somebody sprains an ankle, they're like, Oh, I can manage this pain and then that management becomes normal. The limp becomes normal. But Don Furious, he was actually the first one that explained to me the delineation between two different types of pain. So the pain of hey saying that her dealing with all these things, like you know, what, if you got to have conversations with Dad, how did you feel when your mom got shot. Like because it's gonna be painful once you stuff it down, and you got to, you know, readdress it. But he said, that will eventually subside and lead to healing. Right.
But the other pain of when people intentionally offend you, or wound you, just because they're malicious. I, you know, I'm just gonna say something, whatever nasty to you or harm you physically. He said that's a different type of pain. Right? That's a pain of motive, and malice. And because the body responds to both pains the same, we think they're the same. Right?
So we think the malicious one is the same as “I was hurt because this situation happened in my life”, right? Because if I give you some personal information, and you say to me, I'm like, “oh, that hurts”, right? And it's the same way to where if you and I are close to me, you know, you said your father passed of cancer and you tell me, “hey, my dad passed”, my body's gonna, “oooohh that hurts”. So we think that they're the same. And that's why we disregard them. If you if you're dealing with trauma, you disregard both the same. But he said, both don't have the same outcome if you deal with them. You know, yeah. And that was, you know, I would say that was blackness. You know, in a sense, there still is blackness. So, nah…I’m not talking about that pain. What? I'm gonna talk about it with you or some other people. Why so they can use it against me? Nah. That's not what we do.
And you don't have the the emotional muscle to not lose yourself when dealing with it? You know, it's like, well, if I start crying, when is this gonna stop!? I don't know when it's gonna stop. When does this road end? You know, like, it's just so unfamiliar. So you rather just, you know, deaden the reality and live in this, I say this middle ground, is never highest number low. It's just endurance.
Seth Price 23:45
Here comes ad content.
Seth Price 24:15
I know being raised, I was taught by my dad, we don't, what's the purpose of crying, like, it's not gonna fix anything, like, just deal with it. And so like today, like, my wife will tease me, she's like, you know, you didn't cry when I walk down the aisle. You didn't cry when our kids were born. Like, I really do lack empathy. Like the words that she's used before are “I'm gonna need you to have some empathy here”. Because I like, though I can't relate to, you know, the racial trauma. But I buried all these other things as well. And so I often don't feel things.
Now that's helpful sometimes, like at work, especially when I'm manager at a bank. And so sometimes when things fall apart, like everybody looks at me, and I'm the only one not freaking out until I get in the car and then I lose my hair. That's what I'm blaming it on. I'm blaming, I'm blaming all that repressed emotion. That's what I'm blaming it on. But I mean, my brother's the same way. Really? Yeah. And like I tried it last year, I made a commitment to try to be more emotional. I try to be emotive and wrestle with my emotions.
A.D. Thomason 25:19
Yeah, well, what are you on the enneagram? I'm not an enneagram nut. But hey, everybody's talking about it.
Seth Price 25:25
Five.
A.D. Thomason 25:26
Oh, you’re five.. Okay.
Seth Price 25:27
What are you?
A.D. Thomason 25:32
A one.
Seth Price 25:33
I’m not sure what that means.
A.D. Thomason 25:34
But what do they say? They say is like the perfectionist.
Seth Price 25:35
Isn't the one like the person that's like, I see something wrong. I'm gonna go do it. Yeah, I'm like, do it and fix it.
A.D. Thomason 25:41
Yeah. And then, you know, they have the wings. So I’m a wing two wing. Which is a helper and a wing nine, which is the peacemaker.
Seth Price 25:50
Yeah, I um. I don't know a lot about the enneagram. My pastor is great with it. He's like, certified and whatnot. But oh, like, like, as a five. I just want all the knowledge. Like if I could turn the computer around, like, I've got five versions of the Bible here, with different commentary. Like, I got books on Islam, they're Buddhism there got my atheist books here. My mystical books, like, you know, like, I just have to read all the things. The goal is do something with all of that. Don't just hoard it.
You know, but anyway, so I want to go back to the Lauryn Hill Jay-Z thing, because I can't let this go. Also, you said that Andre 3000 is probably the best MC out there. And you're just wrong, Adam.
A.D. Thomason 26:38
(Laughs) Oh who is yours? Who you got?
Seth Price 27:41
Oh, so is the other part of OutKast. So I honestly think Big Boi is much better.
A.D. Thomason 26:43
Big Boi! Okay.
Seth Price 26:44
Oh, man, but they rap differently. Like they do. It's different. Like, he's not as fun. He's not as fun.
A.D. Thomason 26:49
Hey I love big boy. Yeah,
Seth Price 26:50
He's just better.
A.D. Thomason 26:53
Yes! I love somebody that loves Big Boi.
Seth Price 26:56
Yeah, I like Andre as an actor. Like, I like his personality. I like his energy and his spunk and how enthusiastic he is. But that's not me. I can't relate to that very well. I don't know. It's okay. You can be wrong. I mean, it's in your book. So you can be right in your book, but you can overall be wrong.
A.D. Thomason 27:19
Most people put Andre in the top five. They not gonna put Big Boi up in the top five.
Seth Price 27:22
You know, but most people listen to rap music on the radio. (we both laugh)
A.D. Thomason 27:30
I love this. This would be a great discussion or but you know, talk about that I love to talk about this.
Seth Price 27:37
Can I be honest? So I want to talk about the chapter “A Little Mold Won't Kill You” and kind of like the themes of that chapter. But I also did not know about this YouTube video that you referenced at the beginning. That's says what you need to know about cutting off the molded part of the bread. And I'm just going to say I also cut off the mold of the bed because I grew up quite poor. And you just cut it off and eat the rest like we don't get we're not wasting food. Matter of fact, if you're really hungry, just shave the top don't cut off the whole thing. Just shave it, you know?
A.D. Thomason 28:10
Oh yes come on! I do know what you’re talking about.
Seth Price 28:12
Oh, yeah, that's, that's what you do. Like, this is money! It's not bread, this is money!
So what are you getting at in that chapter? And kind of not only how does it relate to blackness, but kind of how does it relate to what we're all going on as we begin a new politic, a new church with struggling with where its power is in America and by default the world like, What are you getting at with this chapter?
A.D. Thomason 28:37
Yeah, so I talked about the video I saw where they explained mold. And really what you see has tentacles, below the surface when it comes to mold. As they use the phrase “today years old” when I saw that video. I was like what!!!
So in that chapter, I'm just really trying to explain seeing below the surface. So for me, if somebody if you are a counselor, and maybe you got your degree and you're my friend. And you live with me, you may see these outbursts, you would have been able to see below the surface. You would have saw the outburst of surface level mold, but you would say “Adams hurt. He's dealing with some stuff that he has to process”, right. And then on the flip side, if you know a person gets you and they see outbursts in someone else, well let me flip it. If a person is not healed and they see good acts and someone else they may read negativity below the surface into someone because of their own mold. So there are times in marriage. My wife would do something. And because I haven't, you know processed certain things or mom and, you know, things that I grew up seeing and doing, she'll do something and I go “Oh, you try to get at me. Okay, that's what we're doing right now. Trying to start this…feels like get at you”. And she didn't grow up like I grew up. She's like, “what does that mean? What do you mean I'm trying to get at you”?
“Okay, so now you play that game. That's what we doing”. (laughter) She's just confused. She’s like “hey, we're not in the inner city of Detroit.”
“Okay, so now you're gonna bring up Detroit, that’s what we you doing”? You know, so everything is really below the surface in a negative way. Right. And then on the flip side, you can have eyes to see below the surface. So therefore, a lot, uh, I would say, Don would say, “Adam, you got some stuff going on in empathy and understanding. I know what you're doing on the surface isn't indicative of where you are below the surface”. So kind of that illustration. blew my mind. You know here's this is funny. I didn't put this in the book. I thought about doing it. Bro! We used to, did ya’ll used to boil milk when it got old? Skim off the…
Seth Price 31:06
Yeah.
A.D. Thomason 31:06
[skim off the] top and then reuse it?
Seth Price 31:07
Yeah. Yeah. You also yeah, you just re pasteurize it, you also can buy gallons of milk when they're on sale, like next to next to last day, like, you know, it's like, hey, instead of two bucks a gallon, we're at 80 cents a gallon or whatever? You pour out a cup and a half and you can freeze it. Because if you don't pour out the cup and a half, you break the whole gallon, but you pour out a cup and a half, you can freeze that and then you got two days to use it when you unfreeze it. That stuff can sit in the freezer for like a year
A.D. Thomason 31:31
We did that too! Frozen milk! This is crazy!
Seth Price 31:38
Yeah, I was having this conversation with with a friend of mine the other day, and I was recommended to show to him He's like, “Man, that's not my kind of show”. Like it's not a show about this. It's just a show about being really poor. That's all it is. And he's like…
A.D. Thomason 31:55
What show?
Seth Price 31:56
It's called shameless.
A.D. Thomason 31:56
Okay.
Seth Price 31:57
It's not, it's probably not appropriate for most people. Like it is vulgar, and hilarious. And horrible, and I don't know how to explain it well. It's one of those shows that both my wife and I are like, why are we watching this? You want to watch another one? Right? I do want to watch another one.
And then like, there'll be times where she'll bust out laughing at something. I'm like, why that's not funny. She's like, that's hilarious. And then there'll be other times where I'll have my style. And she's like, I'm glad that…I'm glad that you could laugh at that. Because that's, that's horrible. I know. Yes. I don't know. It's maybe it's therapeutic. Maybe that's what we needed for last year.
So with the concept of like, tentacle stretching down into things. So, upon realizing that, and if the bread is either the church or our country and we can't cut off them all. You can't really burn it down, either. We can't really cook it. What's kind of something that you think that we should upon realizing the mold like how do we address this going forward? Because these last four years, really these last centuries, but especially for, what it feels like, just from what you see what you read is everybody realizes the mold now, there's no way to not realize the metaphorical mold. So what do we do with that moving forward maybe?
A.D. Thomason 33:12
Man, I think what I'm about to say, I don't even think it the people of God can do it in sobriety. We got to humanize each other, and see below the surface. So I practice jujitsu, Brazilian Jujitsu, add that to another, you know, thing that I do. And one of the things I teach you is, your first move is not the move you're trying to accomplish. You got to see two, three, steps ahead. Right.
And the thing I've seen in this schism is we're always treating each other off of what we see. And I personally believe that that is the fundamental thing that we do wrong, that Yeshua Jesus did not do. He was always trying to see beyond what was in front of him. And the reason I think that's so wise is you humanize the other person, when you ask the question. Okay, if you don't agree with voting for Trump, or voting for Biden, or you know, this QANON, or whatever. Okay, on the surface, nobody agrees. The goal isn't to agree. I think that's naive to think we're gonna agree, right? The goal is not to agree. The goal is how do we journey together and appreciate each other's imago dei. But what happens is we believe that narratives that you're so non human or there's no way you could be human, if you say these things, right. And the church specifically shouldn't take that stance but they are. And it's sinful it is Satan.
Okay, well, look at what Christ said. He says
pray for your enemies bless them.
I would look at what Paul says he says
correct your opponents with gentleness
and 2 Timothy, 2:21 and following
correct them with gentleness knowing that your enemy is ensnared to do the will of Satan.
And so even if I'm your worst enemy, he says, Be gentle. And pray that God may perhaps grant them repentance because they have been ensnared to do the will of the enemy. So I'm looking around I go nobody's seeing beyond the surface. Right? And nobody is really in the Scripture. So I mean, we got more what Paul says in the last days, people will be led astray, entertaining, doctrine of demons. Like this is in the Bible like, doctrine of demons. Right? So if you if you have eyes to see this soberly, you're sitting back and you're going, I know that's not your ideal talk, and something's going on there. How can I lean into that? And that's what to me is very impressive about Jesus. And he discipled that, so it wasn't like, yo, Jesus is Superman. He goes, I'm showing you how to treat people. Now, when I leave, you do the same thing.
Seth Price 36:01
Yeah, I want to go back. So what do you mean when you say “permission to be black”? Because the question I'm about to ask needs that context. So what does that mean, what are you saying there?
A.D. Thomason 36:08
You're in a simple sense, the permission to process my humanity without shame. The permission to express, I would say my god given cultural expression, without shame, assimilation, or castration. So say for instance, in general, I've been fortunate to travel to a lot of places. Some for basketball, some what we call old school missions, and trips and stuff like this. I remember we were in northern Ghana, and we're, the phrase, “we're in the middle of nowhere”, makes this place look like the remotest place I've ever seen. Like, I've never been to a place to where ago. If they wanted to do something to me, they could nobody would ever get caught. They never know. That's how far north and out of touch from society. We're in northern gun. So what I'm about to say to you is like what? So we're just going on is uncharted, bumpy, dusty, rickety road. You know, it's like a scene of Ace Ventura When Nature Calls.
Seth Price 37:27
(laughs)
When you say that, all I can see is that hippo. That’s all I can see.
A.D. Thomason 37:36
So we're known as rickety, dusty road, and literally out of nowhere, I see this, you know, Northern Ghana Baptist Church, blah, blah, blah. And it was just interesting. I go “was the Baptist sign needed?”
Seth Price 37:56
And in the middle of it it had a spot for the words the way that like the they do you know, burn and repent, or did it have a spot for that? The way that we do here?
A.D. Thomason 38:09
It did not. I would have cried it if did though. I remember thinking like, “come on ya’ll. Ya’ll know this sign ain’t doing for nobody”. And that's not even the first language that they speak in northern Ghana, right. So I just remember thinking like, “Yo, this is kind of what we do. You know, we make people think that they have to come under a banner, a culture, a language, we don't give them permission to say like, hey, follow Yeshua, follow Christ, and let your cultural expression be another expanse in God's kingdom. We’ve got to put the song we got to put the banner when it comes to a lot of cultural things. So that's what I'm saying what permission to be black.
Seth Price 39:00
Yeah, there's a part in here in “The Conquering Lion”, where there's a subsection called “wrapped in minority skin”. And so you say
without teaching an entire class on the subject, I'll just say that there's one question and three things that make this passage the greatest reality about Yeshua.
And you say first,
he impoverished himself.
And then you say
Yeshua wrapped himself in Jewish skin. And the Romans picked up where the Greeks left off oppressing and distaining the Jews. He did not choose the majority skin but that of the subjective minority Not only did he impoverish himself in brown Jewish skin, he also chose the least regarded region as his home, Nazareth.
Like that was powerful like I never I don't think Jesus is white. And I'm aware that…that you know, a lot of people say that but that's just ridiculous like nobody from the Middle East is white. You just have lost your mind if you think that that's the truth. But being that I'm not a minority. I think I sometimes don't know how to relate to that. Like I can relate to compassion and love, grace, and mercy and the other things but that was so powerful for me. So why is that important that people of faith realize that? That he impoverished himself wrapped himself in a different skin, one that overtly gave him no power.
The reason I think that's important is, so much of what I think is going on wrong in our country is just like Christian nationalism. Which is why I honestly had some issues with the inauguration like Garth Brooks should not be singing Amazing Grace. That's Christian nationalism! And some of the prayers that were done, I was fine with the prayer, still Christian nationalism. Which is the opposite side of the same coin that we were angry at for four years. You know what I mean?
A.D. Thomason 40:48
Oh yeah! And not surprised. So then I was like, yeah, I'm not surprised.
Seth Price 40:51
Yeah. Now that poet, that is, she should have just ended it at that there should have been no reason to do anything else. Just get on about your motorcade and go do your things. Like, that was powerful. She was preaching. So yeah, um, yeah, so the concept of minority skin and wrapping himself and things that aren't powerful. Like, why is that important to remember that?
A.D. Thomason 41:13
Yes, that’s good.
Well, I think. So there is a lot flowing in my mind. Let me say this, in my experience, because I worked at, you know, a ton of churches. White. Worked at a big church in Texas. And so I have 17 years of experience, and I've never heard one sermon on what I'm about to talk about even even from the, “black side”. That is very poignant. Because Yeshua, Jesus, lived 33-36 years, depending on who you're talking to, years on this Earth, but we focus on the last seven weeks, people may talk about the ministry, but they focus on the passion week. Right? Death, burial resurrection. So we always talk about talking about the garden. We talk about “not my will, but yours be done”. They'll throw in the Beatitudes, feed the 5000, and the women. But it always comes back to but you got to talk about the gospel and sins and resurrection. Right?
And you miss literally 30 plus years of what did it mean for him to live in skin and experience subjection like “we don't like your kind”? How did he deal with those emotions, those human emotions? Mary was a widow. How did he deal being the oldest? Right? Mary had this vision from or this appearance from the angel. But we don't see anything talked about that until he's baptized, you know, and that Spirit comes down. So what is that human element when it comes to that? And so just sitting back, and I'm thinking it's very important, because it allows, I'll say, it allows people to understand that he understands that human day today.
I gotta get up again, I gotta face this again, when I go out the door. I'm not from this famous city, the place where he grew up “Branch Town”, which is called in Hebraic commentaries. They said at max, being liberal, they have 500 people in the population, so they didn't have a major row. Right? So we're talking about things like that. And so as a minority, and I would say other minorities across the world if you land that on them they go “oh, he has suffered in all respects”. But we make suffered in all respects, again, the passion week. It is really tough. And I want to sweat drops of blood. That's what we make this suffer but we don't make it day to day forgotten about day to day oppress.
Right, the tax collectors, hey, we want to take the Jews money, we're gonna tax their wealth and put it into Rome. There's literally an attack on this people group. We don't like them! So it’s those things that aren't that aren't preaching, so what you have is an anemic Savior. You don't have a savior who understands both the human struggle and the spiritual sin struggle. We only default to the sin struggle. And it doesn't give people a potent Savior. And every time I start, like talking about these things, they're like, man, who is this Jesus? Then they go back and go, Oh, shoot!
Seth Price 44:53
Yeah. I like that. And I will agree with that “Oh”. Because that happens. All the time, like you all the time, so I've started doing, I listened to a different podcast called the Bible project. And they did something where there's like, you know, he's like, just go through the Old Testament and highlight this word everywhere. He's like, and know that it has two equally valid translations. And like, one of them is this. And one of them is tree. He’s like humans are like metaphors for trees often like, like, which is why the vine matters even more. You can just loop it all the way. And I was like, and so I went through and I don't like these are, this is even more powerful, like when you stretch that metaphor, and then you scale it up to Jesus, who obviously knew the Bible, you know? It just makes it even more powerful.
So just last question, and I'm gonna let you get back to your woods walking or whatever it is that you were gonna do out there.
A.D. Thomason 45:41
I got a compound bow. I just go shoot some arrows.
Seth Price 45:47
Just shoot things.
So, when you say, you know for you, Adam, when I say God, or the divine, or whatever that is, what is that when you try to wrap words around it?
A.D. Thomason 45:59
The divine.
I would say, definitely Addonai comes to mind the majestic one. HaShem, Hebraic messianic, approach will say HaShem “the name”. He's so holy, you just say “the name”. I think of God the Father, you know, is love, and worthy to be honored and gloried. You know, Philippians 2, Christ did all these things to the glory of God the Father. We miss that. I think of sacrifice of Yeshua. And then I take it as wisdom and comfort that comes from the Holy Spirit. And so when I think of the Divine it’s more of trying to communicate to humanity that you can come to me in ways that we miss often. Right?
And so I think you know what, Josephus, I love Josephus, because, you know, he was used as Maccabee, zealot that sold himself out to Rome. And you know, for y'all the Maccabees were a sect or you know, zealots, that they believed in the Kingdom, but they're very zealous, you know. And the Maccabean revolt, John 10, they call it Hanukkah, but Yeshua celebrates Hanukkah, Maccabean revolt. The reason I say that is so with Josephus, he was this zealot, and then he sells himself out to Rome. He always talks about the literalness of Jesus and his disciples. So for me as a historian, who is like “Yo, I rejected that to save myself”. I'm not gonna discredit the fact that this was a real person and he had real disciples. That's huge for me. Why do I say that? Because this man, that they would call Jesus said he was sent from the divine as a tangible illustration for humanity.
So to land the plane, I always think the divine is trying to make themselves or himself tangible for humanity to grasp them. I don't think the divine is disconnected or you know, deistic like, Hey, I'm just going to create this thing. Y'all figure it out. Or agnostic, where, you know, he's there, but you don't know; we don't know.
For my understanding of divinity (is that) He's always trying to make himself tangible.
Seth Price 48:42
What do you want people to go? So they're going to buy the book everywhere that you can buy books. But where do you want people like to go to kind of listen to what you do? Like you've got some fantastic... there's a video of you walking in the desert saying some really powerful things like where do you want people to go?
A.D. Thomason 48:57
I would say Iamredrev.com. So there is permissiontobeblack.com for the book and a lot of assets are. And then if you know when all else fails, Amazon, you just look up my name. (laughter)
Seth Price 49:19
Perfect. Adam, I've enjoyed it, man. I enjoy laughing these are always the fun ones where I laugh. And I don't always laugh. So I appreciate you coming on man.
A.D. Thomason 49:28
Yeah, this is good, man. We got it. We got to talk about that rap!
Seth Price 49:33
You know, hey, listen, listen. I mean, my wife would say you're not gonna change my mind and we can have a heated agreement. Heated agreement.
A.D. Thomason 49:41
I'm just curious like, what if somebody loves rap like I do and now I’m like man now I gotta understand. I need to know what lyrics resonate with you and stuff.
Seth Price 49:51
I mean, I can't think of any lyrics off top (of my head) but though so it's for me. It's not what he says. It's the way that he says it. So Andre makes me laugh though, like Big Boi doesn't make me laugh but like just the cadence of the like. There's another artist that I've liked a lot recently. So NF, which I think I'm sure you like, I don't really like how he basically is rage speaking every single lyric that he says.
A.D. Thomason 50:21
So you see that? Yeah.
Seth Price 50:23
But I understand he's hurt and broken and he's using it to process his trauma or that's what he's selling either way, I don't care. But I will say my son, you know, who has some mental anxiety issues relates to that, relates to that rage. But for me, I'm like, that was a bar. Like, did you…like those words that he just put together Son of God. And so like, I just think Big Boi is better at that than Andre. But Andre is entirely more entertaining. Like without Andre there, they would have never been a thing. But he's been they're definitely both better than Jay-Z.
A.D. Thomason 50:56
Alright, here is my and I didn't put this in a book. Here's why I felt like I had to give Jay-Z the crown on two things. And again, I'm not a Jay Z. Stan. The first one. This man has created so many hits across the years and reinvent himself. But here's the here's the other one that I think is a big point. When he released the single open letter, you know, when he went to Cuba, you know, “I turned to Atlanta to event and guayabera shirts and bandanas”, you know? And then he he says last man, Obama, you don't need this anyway, you could chill with me on the beach when they don't have a press conference at the White House to say that all right, man, we talked to Obama they did not…(laughter)
I go no rapper! Every rapper talks about the president. But no rapper has had the White House hold a press conference. I go, “Alright, Jay Z. All right, my man.”
Seth Price 51:57
Yeah, I, um, I had a friend one time, and he's a friend from high school. And he'll still say this, but he just says it to be sarcastic. He's like, the best rappers of all time are Two Live Crew. And I was like, how is that possible? Man, he's like, cuz they're the only people that literally made the government change the laws about the way that we listen to music. He's like, they went to the Supreme Court and because they're literally written in the Library of Congress and the Supreme Court records, that the greatest rappers of all time. And I'm like, whatever, man. I mean, you can't even argue with him. He's not talking about rap.
A.D. Thomason 52:32
He's talking about trailblazers.
Seth Price 52:36
Anyway, alright, man, I'm gonna go hang out with my kids. I appreciate it.
A.D. Thomason 52:41
Hey, man, appreciate you.
Seth Price 52:53
The notion of shared trauma is still foreign to me. But it makes sense. And the more that I dig into it, it makes a lot of sense for the way that a lot of people treat one another. The way that we don't hear one another. The way that we just seem to hate, easily. We're scared. We're tense or anxious because we don't express trauma well, and I don't think as humans we ever really have. But we can recognize that. And we can do it better. We can realize the mold in our lives and throw it out instead of covering it up and cutting it off for a time while it still continues to spread, and fester. its tentacles throughout our lives, and our bodies of faith, and our families and our friends and our communities.
You should buy this book. Like I have a lot of authors that have written a lot of books on the show. This one is fantastic. We did not even scratch the surface. If you grew up with cheat codes like me, and you'd kind of like some, especially if you're a white guy like me and you trying to come to grips with a different point of view. A.D.’s book is easily accessible, hauntingly uncomfortable, and I think that's a good spot to be.
Big thanks to Remedy Drive for their music in this episode. They're amazing. Check out the links to what they've got. And I cannot wait to have you back next week. Talk soon.
Be blessed everyone.