Fulfillment and God with Matt Tipton (Patreon Convos Part 3) / Transcript

Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the episode

---

Intro

September's done basically, how are you doing? Thank you for downloading the show. If you don't know what this is or who I am. My name is Seth, this is the Can I Say This at Church podcast. A podcast dedicated to having authentic and genuine conversations about religion, faith, life and anything else that intersects with those?

So last week in the episode with Henri Nouwen, I had said, you know, in a few weeks, I'm going to try to do a solo episode, I gave a call for you to send in just thoughts, feedback, questions about the show about faith about life about me about you about whether or not the Dallas Cowboys will have a winning season (fingers crossed…we are right now). But please do that please shoot me an email at CanIsaythisatchurch@gmail.com? Use the hashtag, #canIsaythisatchurch, just wherever you want to direct those to me, let me see those, I would love to incorporate those into what is arguably one of the most; so that I'm probably most nervous about, as want to be upfront about that.

Remember to rate and review the show, and a very special thanks to every single patron of the show. And if you're not counted among them, please do so they make sure that the show can be a show, like I say this and immediate every time. This show has no ads. And that's on purpose. So if you thought about supporting the show in any way, click the buttons you find the links everywhere. It's It's not hard to try it down your show notes or website wherever you want to go. And consider supporting the show for as little or as much as you can for as long or as short of a time period as you can. Because I know people's lives change. And I would love to greet you there and tell you Thank you. today's conversation is with one of the patrons supporters. So Matt Tipton is a musician. He's a pastor. He's an artist. He's a father. He's a husband, he's a human. He's from Texas, which gives him at least 20% more street cred. And that's not fair. If you're not from Texas, and I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. But Matt, his music just touches me and I've used his music in a few episodes in the past. He's been gracious enough to share those and and it is a privilege to bring him onto the show to talk a bit about his story. And so here we go. Part Three on Patreon conversations with Matt Tipton…

Matt (off mic)

as a hobby, but also as his way too. I'm giving you way too much.

Seth

Yeah, yeah. Well, so it’s fun as I'm already recording this. So it's…

Matt (in laughter)

No, no, no!!!! That’s way too much

Seth

Well, let's make it go.

Matt Tipton, thank you for being a supporter of the show. Welcome to the show, man. I'm excited to talk to you. I'm a very big fan of your music. You were one of the first people that said,

“Yeah, you can use the music on the show”.

And, so yeah, I emailed a bunch of people. And although yours wasn't the first episode that music was in, you were one of the first people that that said, “Yeah.”

Matt

Wow, really?

Seth

Yeah, I recorded about gosh, about that 12 before I released anything, because I needed to make sure I gave myself a stop-gap since I'm the only person that is doing most of the work. So I needed to give myself runway, if that makes sense.

Matt

Yes,

Seth

The music that I mixed in with the interview with Alexander Shaia, you were the first person that said yes. So thank you for your generosity, and welcome to the show man excited to have you

Matt

Anytime. Anytime. Absolutely.

Seth

So tell me about you. What is it that makes Matt…Matt and that's…I ask the same question every single time because that's literally one of my favorite questions.

Matt

Well, that's interesting, I think it's like, has a lot to do with the past. I think it has a lot to do with, who and where I came from, how I was brought up, you can have my family life growing up, and maybe some disappointments my past, but in what I strive to be today. It's kind of weird that you say that, you know, like, what makes Matt “Matt”, um, I'm in a weird season of life; and you might understand that. But being a man, you kind of go through different phases, being someone who turns 18, you're, you're told you're this adult, you know, that you need to be, you know, on the road to figure things out for yourself, you know, what do you want to do with your career? What do you want to do with your education, whatnot? How are you going to support yourself, and it's more about yourself. And so growing up, you know, that's just the mentality that I had, and, you know, as a, as a young man, you know, and then getting to be this young man, growing through my 20s, growing up, starting in ministry, going through disappointments in my family, trying to raise a family trying to support my wife and my family, through, you know, my career and what I'm doing in ministry, there's just a different perspective. And so, it's really weird, because like, I'm at a whole different phase of life being 37. of going, I'm not that young man. I know, that sounds weird. Somebody's older listeners, you know, but I'm not that young man in my teens, or my early 20s, or even my early 30s anymore, it's like a weird lens to look through to go, who is bad? You know, what makes Matt; Matt?

Well, I'm in a different place. I'm going and kind of relearning that;

I'm re-learning what it is like to be through the failures and, and everything of, of who I am. And as my kids get older, and it's like, wow, I kind of had that idea. But I'm constantly in a state of learning, I should say.

I grew up, I grew up fatherless. Um, I didn't know my dad. And, you know, a lot of listeners probably could probably understand, you know, in some way. With that, you know, but I never knew my real father. I had the chance to kind of meet him when I was older in life. But I found out that he died soon before I got the chance to actually meet him in person.

So my whole life, I kind of dealt with his father issue of not knowing who and what a father was like in my life. And so that really kind of shaped who I was, and how I thought, and a lot of ways, I know I'm sorry, I'm probably going a little bit further than I should be.

Seth

you're fine, you're fine.

Matt

But when it comes to faith, my faith is a lot of what makes me who I am. But a lot of it stems from not having a father, and really coming to trust who God is, as the Father, through not having the father. Does that make sense?

Seth

It does

Matt

So it continues on through this manhood of now being 37 becoming kind of that early, young, older man. So I'm not like a young man anymore. But I'm kind of like, the I'm like the young man of the older man. So I'm like the kind of the, at the beginning stages of becoming an older man. I have a different lens of life as what a man should be. And so my perspective as far as like, everything is changing constantly. And so what makes Matt Matt is, is always changing. And it's definitely in a season where I feel like it's a different lens, and I'm learning how to see through that lens, if that makes sense.

Seth

Yeah, well,

A 30,

Or I'm sorry, I'm tired of saying, Hey, I'm gonna edit that I whatever, doesn't matter. I say that a lot.

Matt

(laughter!! ) keep it in! Keep it in!

Seth

1, there we go, we just changed the prefix.

37 is a fantastic age, because I am also 37 I've never thought about myself being a young-old man. But I do, I'm often reminded of I don't know, who said it, maybe one of my grandparents maybe was my dad. And, you know, old is, like, 20 years from now. And I can remember being 17 and being like, “Wow, man, 37, you know, 35, whatever, that's old”.

And now that I'm 37, I'm like, 50 is definitely not old, definitely not old.

So I can relate to that a lot. What is that old lens? So you talk about you got a new lens in that you've been wrestling with some things. So if you're willing, I'd like to hear a bit about that, like, what is the old lens? And then how is that shifting or fracturing into a new lens for I guess, this year, this season, or whatever it is,

Matt

I think it's more of like, you're in your early stage of manhood. You're more independent, you know, you're really trying to focus on taking care of yourself and making a name for yourself, a career for yourself, supporting yourself, you know? I know this is weird, but I mean, this is like the kind of pre-millennial age; like I'm one of the first millennials I'm the early millennial. You know, I still was taught dude, when you're 18, you're out of the house, bro. Like you know, it's time to go and get out of the nest and start supporting yourself.

And so that was the big deal for me. So there was always this mentality of like, what is your career going to look like? What are you going to do, you know, to support yourself, and then I got married at 22 and immediately was, I wouldn't say bribed. But, you know, God led me to this, this opportunity to help start a church and the north, the Pacific Northwest. And so just north of Seattle, I hope I got the opportunity to start a church with a friend at 22 in one of the most unreachable areas of the United States and no ministry, no ministry training, no seminary degree, nothing. All I was out to be was this producer, I love being in the studio. That's what I went to school for. That's what I was trained at was working in the studio was producing others was, you know, being an audio engineer. And so I was geared towards that. But God led me to help start this church without the thought of actually pestering, but just going to help.

And as my wife and I, when we got married, three weeks after we got married, we were after a honeymoon, we actually moved to the Pacific Northwest, and to help start this church with a friend and just felt led, it was adventurous, it was, you know, exciting, we were 22 we didn't have kids or anything like that.

So it's still something that have this mentality of like, you know, I'm here to, like, make a name for myself, like I want to be known for being this faithful person who's just jumping out on a limb, like, trusting God and just doing whatever he's called me to do. And God used that in a big way to bless me, but also to kind of mold be like, so he was blessing me for being faithful. But he was also like, was shaping me and disciplining me out of kind of the sheer ignorance that I had this like confidence that I had, but also, I don't know how to explain it, ignorance, immaturity.

Seth 11:58

Yeah. How long did you How long? Did you pastor there or did you just produce there? Like, were you preaching? Were you singing? What were you doing?

Matt

Well my youth pastor was going to be the actual church planter. So he was going to be the senior pastor and he wanted me to come along and asked me to pray about it. And as a young man, I thought it was of interest. I thought, you know, I’d talk to my soon to be to be wife, and see what she thought about it.

We both agreed and felt called and so my job was going to be an intern at Mackie. And, and so this was in the Pacific Northwest, and so my job is not to be actually full time or to be employed by the church. But what happened was on my way up to the Pacific Northwest to Seattle, after our honeymoon, we drove up, we spent four days traveling in a car, taking whatever we had, which is barely anything, we didn't really have, you know, lot, you know, beds or anything like that we had, maybe a dresser and a table and a TV and some clothes.

And it was pretty embarrassing. And we are going to move into this apartment complex that was 659 square feet. And on our way up there, my wife was planning to be an accountant. For one of the big four, there was Ernst and Young that was in Seattle. So she was going to be starting at Ernst and Young in Seattle. So that was her occupation. But my occupation was, I was planning to just go and be an audio engineer to go and produce to kind of start my career in Seattle. But on the way there, the guy who was starting the church called me and said, “Hey, Matt, we're raising a lot of money. And I would love for you to come on full time on staff to be our music production guy”. And so I thought, “um, can I call you back?”

You know, so. So hours later called him back, and I was like, that sounds really cool. I don't really know what you're wanting from me. And he's like, well, we can talk about details when you get here, and so got to Seattle to talk to this individual.

His name's Chris, amazing guy, talked to Chris and said, “Hey, okay. I'm willing to be a part of the team full time. He says, great. You know what, we'll talk about it more when we get here. And it was funny, because in my heart, I had no intention of ever, being a pastor, ever being on on staff at a church never being a pastor, I just had no heart for it. I didn't know what that was like, I had never been to seminary and never been to anything.

And yet, I'm moving across the country. What I thought was just this adventurous ride, but yet God was calling me to be a pastor. And when I started that job, I was basically put in a position where I was to build teams and to become this leader, and to help form this church that didn't exist out of nowhere. And being so oblivious, and kind of ignorant, which was kind of good in some ways, God led me to starting to kind of love the church and understand who the church was. I never really knew who the church was, but through this decision, you know, and faithfulness of trusting God and moving out of ignorance, God was kind of shaping my heart to have this desire and love for who the church was.

And so out of that time in the Pacific Northwest, and and becoming on staff actually became the one of the pastor's of this church and lead a team saw it grow, got to be a part of something pretty incredible, but something I never thought I would be, and that came from faithfulness, but also out of ignorance.

And God really begin to shape, you know, I guess he began to, I guess, make it real, in my heart of who he was, as father more and more, because at that time moving to the Pacific Northwest, there was still kind of a distrust towards the father figure of who God was.

But he had taken care of me of him like this, you know, disciplining me, but also leading me into this position of understanding who the church was, man, I can't tell you it was incredible to like, bring me closer to this understanding of God the Father.

And so what was missing in my life became even more real by taking this chance.

Seth 16:30 And then so that sent you from there…so that, did that whet your appetite to want to get into ministry? And is that because you're in Houston now? Right? At least if Google is correct, you're in Houston.

Matt

Yeah, Yeah,

Seth

Google's always correct. So how did how do you get to Texas? Like, are you from Texas? Did you go back, Or?

Yes, where we came from? We came from a church where I used to help out the youth ministry and the youth minister of that church where I served, felt led to start a church somewhere, asked me to be a part of that team. And through that team, we decided the Pacific Northwest.

So yeah, being in the Pacific Northwest, I was actually there in Seattle for about six and a half years before the Lord was like, it's time to go. And then when I was kind of feeling called away, there was an opportunity in Houston, back at the church, I served that for being on staff as as a worship pastor. And so it was really unique.

I mean, to see how all of this played out that here's the church I came from, you know, I'm and then I moved to Seattle, started church. And then years later, feeling led away, only to, you know, return back to Houston to the actual church that I came from. Yeah. And serving there ever since.

Seth 17:51

Yeah. So curious, you've talked about what the church looked like, or what the church needed to be. And I feel like you're talking about that church in the Pacific Northwest. But I'd like to break that open bigger. And so as a pastor, as someone of similar age as me, you'll read, or you'll hear argued, the church's role should be this, or the mission of the church should be this but curious, what do you think the church should actually be busy doing on days that aren't Sunday? Like, what should we be doing?

Matt

Honestly, dude, I think it's interacting with people in in circumstances that break our heart. I think it's trying to fix fix brokenness, regardless of what it is, whether it's people or whether it's circumstances. I think, going in to restore situations is, I think, probably the key element.

I think the thing that makes me fulfilled, and I think what makes the church fulfilled, rather than just living individual lives, rather than just focusing just on our family, which, yes, we should, I think, like, yeah, go in and try to restore our family itself. But I really feel like in the broad sense of our communities, in our world, and to look for broken circumstances, and to look for broken people and to just have compassion and to love them in reality, and to build community from that.

And so I don't know that that really is the it's really funny, because it's like, the one thing that gets me charged is not necessarily making music. But it's seeing brokenness, not fixed, don't want to say fix, but I guess seeing people and meeting people in their brokenness.

Seth

So a question I haven't asked anybody in a while because I haven't spoken anybody from Texas in a while. But you know, I've talked I've asked, I've asked Sean Palmer I've asked Derek Webb, I mean, Richard back a couple of people. So you get to choose now. And so I'm going to break I'm going to break the theological theme for a moment, you've got to do either, you know, Whataburger or, In and Out Burger. Which one is it? Because this matters, this could be heretical.

Matt

Good question. It's Whataburger dude. Are you kidding me?

Seth

Yeah. I saw the news the other day that they were being bought by someone else. And I was like, Oh, no, I'm like, Oh, nevermind. This is just venture capital. It's gonna be fine. They're still making burgers, it’s going to be ok

Matt

You're talking about Chicago?

Seth 20:17

Yeah, I think it's just some rich person with some money, bailing them out.

Your music, I've really enjoyed it over these past couple years, like, especially Ephesians, I don't know why I come back to that often. And there's a track where you stop playing, and you just hear like a preacher, come on, just “worship God”, and I forget what track it is. But it's one of my favorite tracks.

Even my kids, like when we're driving, will turn it up. And then they all just yell it with there; but I'm curious, you know, as a musician, as someone, I also play music, I'm not extremely good at it, but I enjoy doing it. When I sing, and when I write, or when I play someone else's music, it changes the way that I view God

Matt

wow

Seth

in a similar way to how like having kids has changed the way that I see God.

And you alluded to that a bit about, you know, with God, as father, when you're writing music, or when you're worshiping with music, how does that break open pieces of God that possibly weren't there prior? Or how has it in the past?

Matt

That's a really good question. I think music is definitely extremely, I guess, useful for me as, as a person of faith and somebody who's able to just try in a sense, I guess, communicate what's going on internally. It's a chance for me to Yeah, I guess to it's a good question.

I guess with like, kind of Ephesians , you know, fusions was big, big in my heart Even before I recorded that album, for instance. Because what inspired me was years before that, I had memorized Ephesians, chapters one, two, and three, and held on to that, and that ministered to me in in so many ways, because I would hear sermons, I would hear conversations, I would hear theological debates and conversations based on faith. And it always come back to these chapters that I had memorized. And it was always like, kind of, I would start just, quoting Scripture, you know, based on conversations, so those those chapters meant a lot to me. Ephesians was huge, you know, in the, I guess, developing my faith and who God was, and just becoming a, I guess, a better theologian, you know, better in my understanding of who God was. And so, later on, when I was at Houston, Northwest, back in Houston, our pastor Dr. Ezner, he did a series and a fusions, and that was something that that really gripped me, and really challenged me but strengthened me in so many ways. And I felt compelled to share that share where I was, personally my faith walk and through writing about the the chapters in Ephesians, and through that, it was not only a goal to encourage others, but it was also in a goal to encourage myself, you know, to strengthen myself. And so, in so many ways, I think God use that to bless others, but also just to bless my heart and help me understand who he was through this creation of singing about him and, and writing about him based on the book.

Seth

Ephesians is, it's a great album, Blessed King also has become, I think that's the name of the album that might just be the name of the song. Is that the name of the album?

Matt

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Seth

And it's a great cover. Either way, I'm a little jealous of the cover. I like simple, bold, like, it's just, it's easy to recognize anyway, that's a digression. So you had talked about at the very beginning, possibly before I told you, we were recording that, you know, some things in your faith had possibly changed or shifted. And so I'm curious what some of those are, and kind of where you're at now? Like, if there's something that you know, the 18 year old version of Matt was like, absolutely, this is the gospel truth. What are those things now that you're like, “Yeah, man, I really missed the boat. It was unloving. And maybe I was right. But I'm pretty sure I was wrong”, because I have a lot of those.

Matt

You’re absolutely right. So like, I think just being a student, in ministry, I think you're very vulnerable to the message and the narrative of Jesus, and, you know, of what happened on the cross, and what led to the cross, and understanding who God was. Just this whole idea of this evangelist like, you know, so are you evangelistic, evangelical, sorry, can’t say the word right. This idea of just understanding who God is, you know, based on, you know, the narrative of Jesus and the birth and virgin birth up to the cross, and, and, and then the resurrection and the ascension, and then how we are to share that, Howard share this, this gospel truth to people, in a sense that we know all the answers, you know, and that we know, life secrets to everything, of why people are depressed, why people are addicted, why people are broken.

It's all because of this, you know, and here's the one way to fix it. And it's just like, I think when you're young, you're very vulnerable, and really receptive to that. But also, it's easy to grasp on to that and become kind of judgmental, in a lot of ways into think that way to have that, that way of thinking of like, even people in your family members in your family, people in society, people in politics and everything. Like this is what Jesus would have thought, here's what, here's what we should think, here's the right way of thinking. And if you think differently than you wrong, and you were going to Hell, you know, just point blank, and being young, you know, that's, that's something that you kind of grasp on to, I think out of fear and anxiety.

You want to be in the right, you know, right state of mind, you want to be in the right crowd. And so I think life helps shape for the shape a different perspective, I think of the more people, you know, the brokenness that you experience yourself, but also the more broken set you come in contact with, when reaching the broken, you know, there's a different perspective that you have, and that opens up.

And so I think, especially Blessed King, it's kind of ironic, because a lot of the songs were written when I was a kind of in a young state of mind when it comes to who the church is and evangelical mind of growing the church, but being a part of a church plant and reaching people in the Pacific Northwest, who are complacent, but also who are resistant towards faith in general. Just thinking, wow, they're so wrong, I can't believe they're doing this, you know, without even knowing them without even having a greater perspective of who these people are.

But yet, writing this music and putting out this album, is almost a way for me to become vulnerable in that sense of telling people, this is who I was, I still believe in who God is, in his essence. But when it comes to certain topics in the church, and when it comes to certain topics of faith, like those become a little bit more left handed, rather than kind of right handed issues, if that makes sense?

Seth

What do you mean, what do you mean left handed and right handed?

Matt

Left handed is more when it comes to understanding people and maybe more of their morality, when it comes to understanding issues and politics when it comes to understanding the no positions in the church where we stand?

Whether it's, you know, through feminism, or politics or Republican conservatism, or just understanding people in general, whether it was homosexuality, or, you know, just different things of the church that I was like, these are close handed issues, right?

And they're really not, you know, and just kind of becoming aware of understanding people, those people in wanting to know who they are, and having a greater perspective, rather than shutting them off, just because of their stance on something and thinking that know who they are based on? I don't know, what they stand for.

Seth 28:42

I want to follow up on that. So how do you I was asked this question the other night, you know, how do you know if the church or the faith body or this the community, because some people just don't go to church and they find community elsewhere? Like, how do you weigh that it's healthy, when, you know, the maybe the past or staff or the the lay staff, or just even the people that sit across from you, you know hold just polar opposite views? And how do you work through that as a church, so that you have space to actually still love each other without just write horrible rhetoric?

Matt 29:17

So I think one of the biggest issues is homosexuality, and especially with the southern church, I should say. So I don't know what perspective you have. But when it comes to the southern church, you know, that's, that's one of the bigger things, you know, other than you being a Democrat, it's like, Okay, wow, you being a homosexual is like, that's another…Wow, that's a huge, huge obstacle here. You know, we just, we just can't seem to cross or to fix or whatever.

And so like, I think the biggest issue is, I've seen so much hurt in that with having best friends who are homosexuals, who have just been shut out by the church. And so I would love to see more of a not only just a welcoming sense of the Church of welcoming in homosexuals or somebody who, you know, who was say, Hey, you know, I'm, I am a host homosexual, but to not have this sense of, of being on mission to save them. Does that make sense?

Okay, we appreciate you saying that you're homosexual, but we, we are going to strive, strive to try and fix you. And here those ways. We're not going to allow you to be a member, we're not gonna allow you to serve, but we're going to, we're going to try to, to meet with you and try to work on this issue that you're having. You know, and it just feels so much like a disconnect when it comes to mercy and service and understanding and compassion. And so it's hard.

Seth

I was talking with someone the other day, they actually. So you asked for, for my frame of mind. So I'm from Midland, Texas. So again, well within the Bible Belt, and then I went to Liberty and it wasn't till afterwards.

Matt

Oh I did too!

Seth

You went to Liberty? Really?

Matt

Yeah.

Seth

When were you there

Matt

Oh it was all online.

Seth

I spent way too much money. But I met my wife, you know, while I was at Liberty, so I wouldn't trade that for the world - worth every penny. And I recently paid that off last October of 2018, which is a big deal. I can talk to people named Sallie again without getting angry.

Matt and Seth

(laughter)

Yeah, for a while there couldn't do it. So that's kind of the frame of mind. But someone had asked me, you know, how can you hold because because I am entirely inclusive, like not just welcoming, like, entirely inclusive. Because I think hermeneutically we use and browbeat Scripture, the same way that people use to justify slavery, or other things. And like, there's just very few words that we hinge on in the New Testament in the old and we just get the culture. And so what I told a friend that is a pastor, he's like, I just don't understand your duties, like I can be welcoming, but they're not they just can't participate in something.

I was like, well, then you're not welcoming. Like, if you want them to participate in sacraments. And I believe marriage is one and you won't do that, then you're not welcoming. You can say you're whatever you want to say you are to make yourself feel good. But you're a liar.

He stared at me as like, I'm not mad at you. I'm just trying to be honest, you know. And I could say that because I didn't go to his church. And I go to a church that doesn't have an issue with that. I know that there's some privilege there. But I'm curious. So what is next on the horizon for Matt?

Like I saw recently, which I haven't finished list, I listen to it a few times. But I haven't finished. I like to chew on music. I saw recently you had an I think a new single come out. But what is, what is next for Matt? Like where are you going? Where are you going? Where you driving that car to?

Matt 32:54

That's a good question, you know, because honestly, I had account like I meet with a counselor just because, you know, I think it's healthy. And something that it really, it helps me in the industry in general, and helps me and my family and relationships and the way I respond to people, the way that I interact and whatever; it gives me a better perspective when it comes to life. Rather than just coping with things in the way that I think they should be dealt with, whether it's, you know, ministry, whether it's personal, whether it's my past or anything.

I need a professional perspective to help me so if anybody is listening out there, and you are, you know, resisting professional help when it comes to counseling, and you're just like, well, I can just do it on my own. I really think one of the most refreshing things is meeting with somebody professional that can give you a perspective and in what you're dealing with, regardless of what it is. Whether it's anger, whether it's anxiety, professional, ministry, frustration, family or anything, it's really good to have that outside perspective, who can tell you, “Hey, have you thought of it this way”.

And so where I'm getting at is meeting with a professional counselor. And going through a lot of things, they, they realize that I was a creative person, they realized that a way for me to become excited to become energized was to create and more specifically music. And so they said, “Well, why don't you turn your therapy, what you're going through in the music, why not talk about and be honest about your emotions and your passion and being expressive through, you know, creativity”. And that hit hit me; that was a long time ago, that was probably, I don't know, 11/12 years ago.

And from that point, I've never stopped creating. And so regardless of what it is, whether it's about my faith, whether it's about who God is, and his nature, whether it's about what I've learned through Scripture, or ministry and my love for God; or if it's just my life, it's if it's my going through my family, or my past, or struggles and being honest and open about the struggles I go through now.

Whether it's habitual struggle, struggles, or whether it's emotional struggles, or whatever it's like, music is a way for me to, it's a way for me to kind of utilize music as therapy. That makes sense. So I view music and melody as therapy in a way. And so I create a constantly create. And so if I want to be vulnerable with people, it's almost like, here's my way of being vulnerable. And showing vulnerability is creating music and releasing it to the world.

To say, I don't care what you think of me. But this is who I am. This is the real Matt, it's my music.

Seth

Your music speaks to me, like I hear a lot of… hear a lot of truth is that that's not even the best word. I hear a lot of authenticity, your honesty and your music.

Matt

I appreciate that. Yeah. So I actually sent so my wife is a cancer nurse. And so people email me sometimes about you know, what can I pray or how can I pray or whatever.

I don't even know why. Because I don't come from any position of authority. But what I send them is that “I will comfort you” song over and over. And I can't tell you how many people have emailed back. And they're like, this was the right amount of “not trite”, and wordplay like the right amount of truth, if that makes sense. Because you can really overdo it when you're trying to comfort someone.

And I don't mean that as a play on words. It's just the best word. So I want to end with this. Where would you send people to that either want to get ahold of your music, want to message you maybe and say, Hey, what are you doing, how can I hear more? Where would you send people to Matt?

Matt 37:18

I would totally send them to anything. That's, that's more of their digital platform of listening music. So if it's Spotify, or iTunes, or if it's Bandcamp, or anything where they go to support, music that they love.

I would definitely say Spotify is a big one. But if you don't have Spotify, if you're, you know, an iTunes person, you can do that. But really, anywhere. There's YouTube, there's anything. So I'm not really…I don't know how to say this, but I'm not motivated by money.

And so I'm not motivated by listens, I'm not motivated by like, wow, I need to get more downloads, or I need to have more people, you know, be followers or anything like that. I'm not motivated by that.

So money's not a big issue. So whatever you, you know, feel that I do listen to, you know, if it's YouTube, listen to YouTube, I'm on there somewhere.

I mean, Spotify, for instance, I'm not making “jack” off of that. So do you want to listen to Spotify? That's totally fine. But yeah, I think if anybody feels led to listen to music, to listen to my music, just know that that's not anything I'm motivated by. I'm motivated by somebody hearing the real me, the vulnerable me. I'm going to be honest about where I am, I'm going to wear my heart on my sleeve, whether it's about my faith, spirituality, or whether it's about my brokenness and mess ups, or whether it's about my, my distrust of fathers and who got it. And maybe it might be a struggle of, of where I am with, with my perception of who God is. But regardless of my music, it's going to be real. So I would love for people to listen to anything.

Seth

Perfect. Well, good. I will link to as many of those things that you listed, I will link to all of them in the show notes. I'm not sure. I will make I don't know how to do one of those link tree things that I've seen people do. But I will make one for you. And I will put it in the show notes. Why not? I'm sure it's free to do so really, it's just a bit of time to do it.

But either way, Matt, thank you so much for coming on. I have enjoyed the conversation. These are amongst my favorite conversations, because there's not a roadmap. And so they're the most authentic ones that I get to have. Like, I really like talking with authors and theologians. But it is often very refreshing to have a different, if that makes sense, like to have a conversation that is not thematically aimed at any overarching

Matt

Yes,

Seth

spine of a book. Not that I don't like those because I do, I love to read. So thank you again, for, for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Matt

Well, I appreciate you know, you asking me and I definitely would love any more conversations in the future. I just really appreciate you reaching out and I love what you're doing. I really do appreciate what you're doing to to have a better conversation in the church. To have a better conversation based on those who are in the church and part of the church and want to see what the church is really about to really dive into better conversations when it comes to personal faith.

So I yeah, I thank you for reaching out and love what you're doing, man, so thanks.

Seth

Appreciate it.

Outro

I love these conversations. I said it in the interview. And I meant every single word of it. These conversations with the supporters of the show and the willingness of those to share their story a bit in part in such a public way to be those conversations here or all of the ones that I have via email or social media, some of them on the phone. They are some of the most life giving conversations that I have and privileged to have them. So I want to leave you with two things. I would like to leave you with some new music from Matt and so that will get started in a second but add Matt’s website, which you'll find links to in the show notes. He's got a quote from Alfonse de Lamartine, and it says

music is the literature of the heart. It commences where speech ends

and I find that to be so true. At times when I don't have words to say there's almost always a song that I can find or music that I lean on. That helps me express something that I needed to get out. It's healthy. I look forward to having Matt back on in the future hopefully, we talked about some things after the fact that I think is a fascinating topic about the intersection of you know, music, you choose self trauma, mental health and so hopefully that will happen. So I hope you all have a great week and listen to this music.

On Following Jesus by Henri Nouwen - with Gabrielle Earnshaw / Transcript

Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the episode

---

Intro

What is happening everybody, how are you doing? I hope your week is good. I hope this conversation finds you good. I have a couple quick requests for you. One of them is new. So yes, there's the obligatory support the show, check out patreon. Do the things rate and review the show on iTunes or pod bean or pod chaser or anything else with the word pod in it. Do that. I will say there were two reviews just a few weeks ago, one of them had like five or six people, four of which I don't think I've ever heard of that I have loved diving into their work, and I'm gonna try to get them onto the show.

Because the review requested that and I love new voices. I love new ideas and new thoughts. Let me know, email me all that goodness, but you know, rate, review, support the show, tell your friends, share the podcast, all the things. The show continues to grow and it's because of you that it does.

But here is my other request. So quickly approaching is Episode 100. And I'm going to try to do something different. I won't interview anybody. I want to talk a bit about the impact that doing this podcast over the last 100 episodes has had on me and my life and my faith and the way that I see, and chase, and fall more in love with God. But what I'd really like to do as well is answer just some of your questions as well. However you want to send those to me, I will correlate them but shoot me some questions and I know that if you have them because I get the emails, and I love responding to those. But I would love to do some of that in a more public forum. So send me your questions. If you don't want your name read, tell me and I'll make sure that I either change it or call everybody anonymous. But open request, send me what you want to know. I am looking forward to doing what I think will be the second solo episode. Besides a few brief updates, and the very, very first episode, I'm excited to do it, and I'm also terrified, but let's do it. Why not?

The topic today is “what does it mean to follow Jesus in an age that everybody's anxious?” Like, what does that look like? What is the return and the going look like? What does Jesus call us to be? Why does it matter? How do I not get anxious about it? How do I deal with trauma, like so much, so much here? And so I was able to sit down, electronically because the guest was in Canada, with Gabrielle Earnshaw, who is the editor of quite a bit of the life and work of Henry Nouwen, and if you don't know who in right now and as you just need to hit pause right now and Google that…the man has impacted so many lives, mine among them.

And so he has a book that is out, if it's not out today, it's out like tomorrow, called Following Jesus. It's a beautiful read. It's a simple read, but it is deeply profound. And those are my favorites, the ones that are written in a way that everyone can understand. And things bleed through and seep in, that you weren't expecting. I really hope that you get as much out of this as I did. And I would highly encourage you, I don't usually do this before we even get on the topic. Go out and get this book following Jesus is fantastic. It is it's it's been a blessing to read. So here we go. A Conversation with Gabrielle Earnshaw on some of the work of Henry Nouwen.

Seth

Gabrielle Earnshaw I am excited to be talking with you and like we talked about a moment ago, slightly nervous to be talking with you because normally the author in question is not posthumous and so that's always fun but thank you, either you or whomever at your publishers or the people that publish the book for sending me an advance copy.

I have loved digging in to Following Jesus from Henry Nouwen but we will get there. Can you tell me kind of a bit about you? What makes you tick and kind of how you got into this?

Gabrielle

Okay, sure. Well, I live in Toronto, Canada, and I, I guess began my work with Henry Nouwen as archivist, I was asked in the year 2000. So it's now 19 years ago, I was asked to start his archives, his papers. Some of his papers had been at Yale University where he taught. And then other papers of his were at L'Arche Daybreak, where he lived for the last 10 years of his life, which is close to Toronto. It's a community for people with intellectual disabilities that he was the pastor for; and I was called in to create an archives for him. And I worked on that for 16 years and it took me 10 years to work through his correspondence alone. He had 16,000 incoming letters that he kept. And then we also instigated a program to collect letters that he wrote to people that they would still have. And so we collected those letters. So that's the type of thing that I've been doing. I did an oral history project on him. So I've become a person who knows a lot about his archives. I know a lot about his family because I've actually was spent a sabbatical in Holland where he's from, and I lived in his former in his father's and mother's house, they're no longer alive. But his younger brother owned the house at the time. And my husband and I lived in it for three months and really, you know, immersed ourselves in Henry Nouwen in his home country.

Seth

What did you do before that? Because Well,

Gabrielle

before that,

Seth

yeah, and then

Gabrielle

Okay,

Seth

what the heck is an archivist? So I hear that and I think somebody's printing everything. Gabrielle

Sure.

Seth

How does that work?

Gabrielle

Okay, so in answer to your first question. I sort of had a classic middle class, childhood in Toronto. I wasn't raised in any religion, which might surprise people because now I am, you know, immersed in Christianity, but I was raised in a very secular household.

But what might be a little bit different than other people is, when I was younger, I started taking myself to church. And that sort of, I think, set me on my path really, I started going to United Church of Canada and the minister was very, a wonderful person and I loved playing the recorder and I love singing and and I guess the the church even though my family wasn't attending, it became a place that I really look forward to going to every Sunday.

And so church and religion generally what is a very, very meaningful and church, is a place where I feel like I belong. So that's an interesting aspect of me I think and my family still is very secular. And, and I attend the United Church now to this day.

And then your second question…what is an archivist? An archivist is somebody who cares for the records of either a person or an organization; like a government or a bank or something like that. I ended up working on papers related to individuals.

So papers can include even though we say papers or records we are referring to everything like photographs and video recordings and administrative files and computer files and, you know, correspondence and draft manuscripts and everything you can think of the person's life all of the records that a person needs to participate in life.

And so when Henry Nouwen and died he had kept almost all of his records. I like to say that he was he was his own best archivist. All I needed to do was just make sure that nothing nothing got lost or misplaced after he died because he he kept absolutely everything. He was very fastidious with his filing. And so my job as an archivist was to create finding guides or ways that scholars or other researchers could use the material, either for their own research for a PhD or a master's thesis, but it could also be for journalists or just regular people who were interested.

I had people who came in and tried to, who looked at letters for example on how he counseled people who got divorced, you know, that kind of thing. So the records are there for everyone to use. And my job for 16 years was to catalog them and make them available to people and make them find double.

Seth

And so you said that was your job? Is that not ongoing anymore. Is it complete, like we have all the things or you're I can't do this anymore?

Gabrielle 10:00

No, I just came to a crossroads in my work with that, with the archives, the archives is very much alive and, and well and people can go to use it at any time. It's at the University of St. Michael's college at UT, in Toronto. But I think what happened to me was I was asked to edit a book of Henry's letters. And, I did that it took me about a year to do and by the time I finished so I took some time off from the work as an archivist. And I guess I got hooked on that. And I've been doing editing books by or about Henry Nouwen since then, and that's been about three years that I've been doing that.

Seth

That book that you reference, is that the one that I'm holding? Is that the book Following Jesus? Is that a different book?

Gabrielle

No, no, it's actually called Love Henry. Letters on the Spiritual Life and it was published in 2016. It's a, I don't think I'm wrong to say, it's a very beautiful book, what I did is I found all the letters that I felt..we collected about 5000 letters; of those letters, I selected letters that I thought would speak most clearly to people's needs today.

So I try to really think about what it is that the 21st century Christian or the 21st century seeker needed to hear. And Henry was a very, very generous letter writer. He was a prolific letter writer, and he wrote to his good friends, as you might expect, but he also wrote extensively and beautifully to people who wrote to him with a question or a problem. So a lot of the letters read, like spiritual direction. So that's why they really, I feel like a person reading them today could feel as though he's writing to them.

Seth

Yeah.

Gabrielle

So that's that book. And then I edited a book of a devotional.

So I went through every, Henry wrote 39 books, and I went through each of them in chronological order, and selected the, what I felt were the gemstones in each of the books, which was quite difficult. I ended up with a 600 page document with that one.

laughter from both

And I had to whittle that down to of course 365 days, or 366 days so I that that book came out last year. And then now this is the latest one Following Jesus, which is quite different because following Jesus is based on talks that Henry did in 1985.

So my work as editor was to take something that was spoken over a six week period, one one night a week for six weeks in March of 1985. And, and and turn it into something that people could read without losing Henry's enthusiasm and the immediacy of what it would have been like to have been a person sitting in the pews.

He gave his talks in a church at Harvard. And so I tried to retain his voice as much as possible, but even that… the excited voice that he had some times when he wants to really connect with people, but also make it so that it's, you know, sort of, not repetitive, or, you know, make it more readable.

Seth

Yeah,

Gabrielle

so that was my task that I was given about a year ago now. And now it's the exciting moment when the book is going to be read by other people.

Seth

Again, I've very much enjoyed reading it. One of my favorite…I don't know if this was done, it had to have been done by someone that does work like what you do…

And to be honest before you'd said you were an archivist. Like, I didn't know that that was a job that exists. Although in hindsight, it must; it obviously…it makes sense that it does exist, but I just never, I'd never thought- it never occurred to me.

But one of my favorite books, I bought it at a used bookstore across from my work. And it is the second volume of a bunch of letters of CS Lewis.

Gabrielle

Ohhh

Seth

and I bought it, I thought it was going to be theological letters. And some of them are, but by some, I mean a minute amount. It is mostly letters to like professors and a conversation about the wars, and politics and economics. And that is just brilliant. Like, I'm reading it. I'm like, yeah, this isn't what I thought it would be. I was really hoping for some theology, but this is really good. And, I mean, it's just nice to see a candid side of people that are

Gabrielle

Yeah,

Seth

less edited. I really enjoy that.

Gabrielle

Yes, and that was the same goal for the letters book as well; was to sort of allow people into into Henry's life a little bit more and I organized them chronologically so that you could see his development and his even his transformation.

I think that it's for somebody who is writing about spiritual transformation, that the fact that he actually underwent one and that it's actually documentable. It's a gift actually. And I didn't know that it would, when I started out with that book, I did not know that I would end up with this portrait of a man transformed by his faith. And that and that, that is what you know, makes Henry Nouwen somebody who a lot of people can relate to because they're also struggling in their faith and in their following Jesus-to get to our book we're talking to tonight.

And he did as well and then he would write about it with with a lot of raw honesty, and a lot of people can can relate to it and then feel freer to struggle themselves in a way that is transformative.

Seth 16:00

Just from the opening missive and if it's all right, there's a part like right at the beginning that I want to talk a bit. Kind of that transformation, but just kind of maybe some of your thoughts as well. On the first chapter there, I believe the first chapter. Yeah, Chapter One is the invitation. And there's a part where there's just all these quotes of what Jesus doesn't say, which I've never really heard it put that way.

Gabrielle

Do you know what page?

Seth

17-second and a half paragraph?

Gabrielle

Okay. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Seth

So yeah, everyone says, you hear it every Sunday or many Sundays, Jesus says, Come and see, you know, come on with me, you know, leave your feet and put the Nets down. Let's go do this thing. But, Henry's here saying, you know, but here's what he doesn't say.

He doesn't say Come on, and I'll change you. He doesn't say become my disciples. Listen to me. He doesn't say to do what I tell you. No, he says, just come around, look around and get to know me.

Like that's the invitation get to know me. I'm curious in so you talk about Henry you know, transforming throughout these times.

Can you break that apart a bit, which is some of what you know of it of? Here's what we're getting at when we're inverting that question of, here's what everybody knows, Jesus said, but it's more important to talk about what he didn't say.

Gabrielle

Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, that's one of the beauties of this book. And that's why a lot of people felt it was a it was something that needed to happen and that's why they asked me to do it. And I think it's because he, I could have called this book and I in fact, I probably even put it forward as an idea like let's call this book Following Jesus: It's not what you think.

Because I think in a way Henry certainly did not have a confrontational style in the least he refers to Jesus is very Invitational I think of Henry is very Invitational, he has no desire to force anyone to believe anything he's saying he, in fact, the more you read of him, or and I've listened to a lot of his talks, he's often saying…

Listen to this with your heart. I know you're going to you know, you've been trained, especially as University people or even people who've gone to any kind of schooling, you've been trained to listen to this with your head. But listen to this with your heart and don't ask, Do I agree with this or disagree with this? But ask how does this relate to my own experience?

And Henry was really not interested in people listening to him so much as him providing space for them to listen to God. That was his whole…he had a personal transformation. But as far as I've been able to see, he started off with that. He started off a very young priest, even in this earliest works. In his earliest letters, he had that kind of…it was like I'm a witness. I'm telling you what I have experienced No, tell me what you've experienced. And I think if you've read some more of the book, you'll see that he he's often times telling the reader to, don't just take my word for it. Think about this for yourself, test this out in your own life. Listen, listen to what your own life is telling you. And then relate it back to what I'm saying and see if it rings any bells. Yeah.

I wanted to just just reflect on this. What Henry says that, you know, Jesus, when the very first his very first, sort of, in the in the first chapter, he's talking about, how is it that Jesus introduces himself to people he does it in a very gentle way. And he does it in a way that where the people that he is speaking to, in this case, it's John and Andrew, they ask the questions and he answers them in a very in a very…he has no expectations.

No, mandate, he's just saying come and see, are you interested in me? Come and see. And then he says dwell with me. And Henry focuses on this passage in the Bible because he wants to suggest that there is an Invitational quality to following Jesus. There is nothing about following Jesus that is mandatory or should feel constrictive in any way we follow.

Henri will go on to say

I we follow out of love, not out of fear. We don't follow Jesus to to know to be like him. We follow Jesus to follow our unique vocation.

We each have our own unique vocation Jesus had his unique vocation. And we have our unique vocation. And a word that comes to mind frequently for me around Henry Nouwen is freedom, there's a freedom in how he writes it's very Invitational, very open, it creates space, but he's also aiming for freedom. So freedom to be loving people.

One of the main trajectories of that, maybe that you also got out of the book is that there's this trajectory of how can I be a more loving person? What's constricting me, what's, what's holding me back. And then he goes even further, as you as you might know, he talks about loving our enemies.

He says, this is the one place that the New Testament is actually new. And I really loved that. This is where Jesus is saying, love your enemies. And I think that, obviously, this is the most challenging aspect of being a follower of Jesus; being a Christian is to really deeply absorb that, that I don't want to say commandment but that invitation, I guess, let's call it an invitation to love our enemies.

And I feel like this book is like a treatise on love, in fact, because he does talk about love, between people in marriages, in relationships in families, and then with our colleagues and he talks about sort of human love. And he calls it transactional. We have a transactional way of viewing love. Like we say, well, I'll love you, if you love me, you know, I'll give you this, if you give me that are the just sort of seems to be baked in to us.

We have that sort of in our DNA, but he's saying, but as followers of Jesus, we have to love out of God's love. And that how can we do that? We do that by knowing knowing in our deepest being that we are beloved by God, that we are the beloved sons and daughters of God. So I think that there's there's challenge in this book. But there's also I feel like he lays out a path that makes it easier to follow; somehow after reading it, the path of being a follower of Jesus.

Seth

And so, I've got it highlighted here, you just touched on it briefly there. When we talk about love and the gospel and loving your enemies. And I think you're right and you touch on it. I think it's in a prior chapter on scarcity, we're so afraid that for some reason, like there's like, somehow the economy at a cosmic with a K, Greek Kosmos,

Gabrielle

mmhmmm!!

Seth

is somehow we're going to run out of compassion, or love or race, or mercy.

Gabrielle

Yeah, yeah.

Seth

And that's only going to be filled with fear and rage and anger. But then you also, you know, here on page 63, it says, you know, the good news of the gospel is that God has no enemies. The Gospel tells us that God loves every human being the same way with the same intensive love. And I like that, like the economy of scarcity, like there is not an economy of scale. And I love talking about that because economics is like I literally work at a bank for a living. So economics, jam. And when that I'm like, Yes. And the transactional quid pro quo. Diana bass wrote a great book last year on gratitude about all the quid pro quo and transactional based stuff. Yeah, absolutely love that. I want to touch back on…

Gabrielle

can I just make one one comment on that, like, one thing that I love that relates to that is that he called it the logic of God. You know, and we are such rational, logical people. I mean, this is this is how we're, you know, this is how we're trained from, you know, going to kindergarten all the way up. We are trained to use our intellect to use our cognitive function and to, to be extremely logical and rational and Henri points out that actually God that there's no logic to God. It's complete logic and that's I again I find that very freeing because then you can start to see that all around you instead of looking for how things are you know falling into place and and you know things like well there should be a lack of food because we have you know, you know X Y Z but then you can start saying well actually where am I seeing abundance and in fact I'm and then you start looking for abundance when you when you hear that there is this logic to God you start looking for abundance and you see it all around you.

Seth

When I read those stories of abundance towards the beginning like you know there's there's too many bread there's too much fish there.

There's too many fishin the net there's just just go give it give it away the multitude. But I read it in for some reason, the back of my mind I read it in a playfulness, like not only is there's so many fish, and you're just missing the point, there's a silly amount of fish like, it's just ridiculous. Like, I know you don't believe me, but if you look down there, you can't even count them. Because there's just a silly amount of fish and want to dwell and I want to broach two parts together, because in my mind, I feel like they are so there's a part here where it says, gosh, where is it? I got it here it is,

like a child dwells in the house with her mother and father. Just dwell, play around sit there half hour, just sit there, just be present.

But that juxtaposes for me towards the tail in there, where we talk about being present. And then there's a part that says, you know,

we grow more intimate by constant leaving and returning.

And then he says, You know,

I want us to feel that for a moment because that's how we might come in touch with the mystery of spiritual life.

And so how did those two you think maybe interplay together of dwelling, but also leaving and going? Because they don't seem to make sense together but read separately they do. But I feel like they're so totally connected.

Gabrielle

Okay, well, I think first of all, in a way, you know, we have the subtitle of the book, it's finding our way home in an age of anxiety.

And I think home is a major theme of this book. What does home mean? And I think what we're talking about mostly here is our spiritual home. And and Henri is, I think, very emphatic that we begin to really trust that our home is in God and with God, and that we live our lives we do the leaving and the returning in the world, knowing that we are always within the home of God.

So there's a leaving and a returning, which is an important part of spiritual maturity and even just maturity through life. But I think in this way as followers of Jesus in the Christian context, it means to be home, even while you're on the road. Does that make sense? In fact, I think he even says that we that we can be home, even while we're on the road and what he means is that we are so deeply steeped in our identity as a child of God, that we can go and come and we can suffer and we can struggle, but at all times we are in the home and in the embrace and in the safety of God.

28:55

The other thing I think he means about dwelling in it's really important is that none of this can happen without spiritual disciplines. We cannot retain that identification as children of God without constant prayer, without a constant conversation with God. So when he's talking about dwelling he in sometimes he's talking about it in a more of a in that more metaphysical sense, but sometimes he's actually just talking about take 15 minutes out of your day and dwell, sit still, sit in silence, be in solitude, and sit with God be with God.

And in those cases, you don't even have a conversation with God at that point. This is this is really where you're sitting in the silence. I like to think of it like I'm crawling into the lap of God and that I am sitting there. And you know, like a child with a parent. You don't need to say anything at that point, right. There's no need to fill the space with with language with words, and I think that for Henri Nouwen it's of primal importance to have time in our day that is completely set aside for creating space for God.

That is a very constant theme in all of his books and all of his writing and all of his talks. Because it was very important for him. He was a really restless person, he was restless, he couldn't even, like if you met him, you could see that he had a kind of nervous energy.

I never met him. But I've heard this from many, many people. So he, you know, any images of him being very, you know, sort of calm and, you know, in a meditative state at all times is completely, not a good image of him. He ran around a lot. He left a lot. He did a lot of leaving. He was in a huge search for how to follow Jesus and this question of the discernment of how do I follow Jesus?

Where do I follow Jesus was his main question. And this led to him being quite restless and moving around a lot. And then consequently also being very lonely and having bouts of depression, he really did struggle a lot, but a lot of his wisdom comes from that struggle.

And I think a lot of his authenticity and the reason why I can trust him as a reliable guide, as a trustworthy guide, for my own spiritual life, is because he was struggling with all of these things. He had something in his core that he was always listening to the voice of God, always in conversation with Jesus, always in prayer.

And so he was a Catholic priests of course, he was, this was his vocation, this was his formation. But, still, I think even people like me, can identify with him.

Seth 32:00

You had a metaphor there of a child crawling up into my lap, which I have two young girls any young son. And that's what literally that happened tonight. My daughter and it's probably inappropriate, but whatever. Like I go to her bedroom, she just taken a bath. She's four. And she's playing a game like, I'm not gonna put on my underwear, you're gonna put on my underwear. And this just keeps collapsing in me.

And she's like, we're going to do lotion. I'm like, No, you're going to put on your underwear. Because I'm a little bit uncomfortable at the moment. I'm going to need you to put on something little baby girl, but then she just cuddles. And I love it and I love it. But, I know, and I get emails and messages that that is not the case like some people are rejected. And that is hard to envision that type of love. So what do you think, because Henri dealt with that so for those that are reading this are dealing with other texts, like how would you respond to this rejection?

Sin is real and that trauma is real, and here's how we can pivot on that to something way more beautiful.

Gabrielle

You're absolutely right. Self-rejection was Henri’s, for whatever reason, he dealt with that his whole life because in fact he wasn't rejected by his parents. He had loving, stable parents, they tell the story that from a very young age he would relentlessly ask the question, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? And no answer was good enough for him. And this actually plagued him his entire life. I don't think he actually ever had that go away. But I think when I talk about his transformation, it's that he was able to live with that struggle and love in spite of it, and be free in spite of it. And I think it's really important. I don't think that for Henri at least and possibly for us as well; It's not necessary to be completely fixed, right?

We don't need to be completely healed. We don't need this, we can live with our suffering, we can live with our struggles, and still have lives of freedom and integrity and be fully loving people and be loved.

And I think that is what he would say to that m. But I know that he would, if he heard someone speak about about terrible rejection in the form of abuse or that manner of rejection, I think he would be in tears with you. And I think that he would cry with you. And I think that the compassion that he would feel for you or for anyone who is going through that…that would be coming from his own wound. His own wound that he was somehow able at a certain point in his life to bind up. It didn't go away, but he was able to bind it up. And from that wound, he was able to be compassionate to other people. And I think that a life of compassion is a life worth living. And I think a lot of people are asking, you know, what is the meaning of life? What's the point of all of this? And at a certain point in the book, you might remember Henri says, you know,

the answer is, if we follow Jesus. Now I know why I'm living like there's a, there's a kind of, it can totally reshape our lives following Jesus.

There's many components to it, but one of them is becoming a very compassionate person is being able to suffer with other people and to and to not run away from it. And to stand tall in it and in our own suffering. And I think that that's what he's talking about when one of his chapters is called The Cost.

You know, we have to hold our own crosses. And we have to bear our own crosses. But I think that there is an almost a beauty in that if you know you were saying how can we see it in a more beautiful light, but I also don't want to say that this is easy, and I don't think Henri Nouwen would say it's easy at all.

I think it's a lifelong journey to it. And, as I say, Henri Nouwen, you know, he died at 64 of a heart attack suddenly. But he was still struggling. If you read his last journal, he was still struggling with all of this…everything you could read in his first journals, but he was living it in a different way. And that's where possibly the hope is: that we can live our struggles in a different way, we can live our suffering in a different way.

We don't need to lash out at people because we're suffering. We can be more compassionate with people because we're suffering.

Seth

Yeah.

Gabrielle

I think that might be how he would answer it.

Seth

So we're following Jesus. And I don't even remember what page it was because I didn't highlight it. But there was a part in there recently about Jesus is giving people new names. And so when I think about me following Jesus, like, it's really one of the thoughts that I had was, you know, so what is my new name?

If I'm following Jesus, and I'm trying to be authentic, what is that? And I don't have an answer to that. And I don't really need to have an answer to that today. I do care. But I think that it's a great call to action of what what am I being called to? And what does that look like? What does that name, that beloved name, what does that look like?

One of my favorite pages pages of the entire book, Gabrielle is page 55. Where there is a conversation on the first love.

Gabrielle

Yeah,

Seth

I literally just want to frame the whole page.

Like, you know, it's I've loved you before you could love anyone. This is so beautiful. So, so beautiful.

Gabrielle

I love

the original Love is the original blessing. Long before we talk about Original Sin or original rejection, we should be speaking of God's original love.

And I think that is so true because we focus so much on sin and how we have to constantly be making up for this sin in some manner. And Henri is saying, let's put our gaze on something else. Henri does that a lot?

He'll say, “yes, of course, we could put our focus on there. But actually, let's shift our focus and put it on something else”. And this in this case, he saying, Let's gaze on this. The original love, God loved us with a…. God loves us, not “loved” us…loves us with the first love.

And when I was talking about love before I was talking about human love as transactional and he calls that the second love. And so the first love is to love as God loves us.

We can only do that when we feel in our very bones, that we are God's beloved children, and that God loved us before we could love anyone or before we could receive love from anyone.

Yeah, Henri Nouwen does a beautiful job. I think of this book, as a portrait of God in a sense too, and it's a portrait of God that some people might not recognize because God is so gentle, is so affirming and welcoming. And, as he says, he doesn't actually refer to God as male or female, but he says, God is home.

God is our refuge. God is our dwelling place. And if we could really feel that, I think life would change for us.

Seth

Yeah, I agree. I want to pivot if you're comfortable. So you talked at the very beginning about your family upbringing and then just kind of how your…. I assume Christian, I can't remember if you say Christian or not, I have to go back in and relisten. So how has diving into all of this stuff on Nouwen, not just this book, but so many things? How has that changed the way that you do faith? And I don't want to say religion because religion is not a big enough word, at least for the God that I worship. So how has all of this changed you?

Gabrielle

Wow. Changed me?

Well, obviously, I was already primed for some sort of, I think I was asking from a very early age, what does this all mean? You know, why are we here? Who am I? Those types of questions, I think, and I was in a house that wasn't asking those questions. I came from a loving house, but people weren't asking my family weren't asking those deeper questions. I experienced a lot of death in my life. My father died when I was two and my best friend died when I was 16.

I have experienced a lot of death in my life and so I think I've been these these types of questions have had a lot of urgency for me and I have always been a seeker looking for answers. So I've explored all the different religions I've read a lot of different spiritual writers and then by grace, I was chosen to be Henry Nouwen’s archivist, but not because I knew anything about Henri Nouwen; because I didn't.

I had never heard of him. But because I was the right person for the job from a professional standpoint. And so when I accepted that position, and believe it or not, it was a six month contract it was really not… it didn't look so great on you know, at first it was just going to be a six month contract, I would come in, or catalog the papers and then then leave.

But somehow I think that this was just the beginning for me.

Because then I was able to, it's like I became an apprentice of Henry Nouwen.

And then my son died when he was four and a half. And that's this is now going on to 10 years ago. And my son died of acute myeloid leukemia was a it was….it was every, you know, every bit as traumatic and catastrophic as you can imagine. And that's really when my, all of that reading all of that digesting of Henry Nouwen really helped me survive it. It was like everything I had read was now coming in, I was now living. And I had to make sense of my son's illness and then consequent death.

His his writing on grieving on how to live with that level of suffering. I feel like I couldn't have lived that experience the way I did without him. So it's quite profound actually is, the impact of him on my life. But it's not just that it's also about how I orient myself. You know, what's important to me.

Is it isn't important to earn a lot of money? Is it important to have a lot of prestige? Is it important that I, you know, look successful in the world's eyes?

I think my son's death really changed my worldview as well. But Henri Nouwen’s questioning of that has also had an impact on my life. So the decisions I make about how I'm going to spend my time have been impacted by him. And I think also that I have a spiritual practice that I believe in, you know, he writes about it with such eloquence that I believe it, and I have implemented it, and I live that.

It's hard to actually articulate how profound the impact of him on my life has been and, and the kind of the mystery of it. Because, as I say, I wasn't raised in a religious household. I don't have a theology degree. I, you know, I go to a very progressive United Church.

But here we are. I'm the person who is now quite familiar with Henri Nouwen.

Seth

Thank you for sharing that. I know, I didn't send you questions ahead of time. And so that probably caught you off guard, but thank you. That's, yes. So children that passed away from cancer or so in my family. My wife takes care of a lot of children with cancer. That's her specialty.

Gabrielle

Oh, wow.

Seth 45:00

pediatric oncology. hematology, infusion.

Gabrielle

Yeah, so those are special people.

Seth

I don't know how her and those others, I don't know how they do it. I don't know any part of the body that makes that happen. I don't possess it. I can't do it. I'm glad someone can.

But anyway, yeah, they leave me entirely speechless. But thank you for sharing that.

Gabrielle

Sure. I could say to that, that Henri Nouwen would say as you've read in the book that every person has their own unique vocation. And so to follow Jesus doesn't mean that we you know, imitate them like I mentioned earlier on. It means that we find our own vocation. And it might mean that you know, some people are meant for a quiet contemplative life some people you know, they express their love of God by doing social justice work. Some people express their love of God and their discipleship to Jesus by being a really good Dad, you know.

So every person who is a follower of Jesus is unique. And he, you know, he calls us all as being a mosaic and all together we, we become the face of God. So if you put all of us, individuals, every human being on the planet doing the, you know, following their, their vocation, their call, listening to God, and following their call, each of us becomes the face of God, but none of us can do it alone. And we need lots of people helping children with cancer, but we also need a lot of people doing other things. And, I think Henri would be quite impassioned about that is that there's no One way of following Jesus.

Seth

Where do people get the book? So it's out when is it September 17? Something like that. Right?.

Yeah, it's it's everywhere I assume correct everywhere? This probably is the book I've read most often this year since I've gotten it it's easy to read, it's not long, it's easy.

And it is oddly addictive.I just want to come back to it; it's written in a way that I like it but where can people go to learn more about work like this? Like, is there a place that I can listen to the talks that this book comes from? Is that a thing that exists? Or do I have to come to Canada to do so?

Gabrielle

Okay, so there is a Henri Nouwen society and and that's easy to find with Google. You just key and Henry Nouwen society and that will come up and it's kind of like the hub of all things Henri Nouwen, and it will list all of his books and you know, some information about more generally, and upcoming events, that kind of thing. If a person wants to really delve into into archival material, they can go to the Henri Nouwen archives at the University of St. Michael's college. And they don't have to go there physically, they can work with the archivists. They're electronically some, the talks are actually available through the archives. So you could listen to them online through the archives. They're not freely available, you have to go through them, but they are available.

Seth

Nice. I'm gonna make that happen. That's the person I am I like to rip these things apart. So I'm, yeah, I'm making that happen. So. Okay, yeah, I think I happen to know a person that knows who the new archivist is. And so I may collect it,

Gabrielle

Oh yeah?

Seth

I think it's you, but I might be wrong may get the best contact for that. Anyway.

Gabrielle

(laughter)

Seth

Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Gabrielle

I've enjoyed being invited and you taking the chance and inviting the editor of a posthumous work. That was a big risk, and I hope it was worth it.

Seth

I enjoyed it very much so. So thank you so much.

Outro  49:12

So when I think about this work put together by Gabrielle from some of the lectures of Henry Nouwen, you know, from the 80s it's amazing how much of it is relevant now as it was then. And I find so much graciousness, and that the fact that the words and lessons that we can learn from Christ supersede every single time and place and dimension of reality that we hold true. There's something about the way that we are called the way that there's purpose, the way that fear and hope are intertwined. You were blessed. You were wholly loved. You've always been accepted.

Talk with you next week.

The Church of Us vs. Them with David E. Fitch / Transcript

Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the episode

---

Intro

Hey, friends, welcome back. It's another week, we did it. I usually steer away from politics and any conversation like that, because it is so charged. And we're already talking about faith, I would rather not talk about two charged topics, but the guest at hand that you will hear in a moment, wrote a book that just intersects it too beautifully. And I think for those listening, I'm going to go ahead, and you don't know what day this is. But, you know, tomorrow will be September 5, and I'm gonna go ahead and send out David's book, to the level of Patreon supporters that get books, I think this book is fantastic. And I can't wait for you all to get it. And so if you are not a Patreon supporter, there's some big things happening there, click the button and do it appreciate every single…every, every, every single one of you there the adequate words, to express how true that is, this show continues to grow at a pace that blows my mind. And without y'all that's just not, it's just not a thing that could happen. You know, another thing that you could do, if you can't do that, because I know not everybody can is you could just click the button, you know, an in iTunes, your podcast app of choice. And you could just rate the show, type in a little comment there and say, you know, Seth is awful at this, or I really enjoyed this. Or you can say whatever you want. Just say something, I read those. And some of them I love, some of them made me laugh. Others I won’t to talk about. So one of my favorite songs, I listened to it frequently, quite frequently, actually, is from Gungor, and it's called us for them. And I love that play on words. And there is a lyric in there towards the end, you know, that says, you know,

prepare the way of the Lord wielding mercy like a sword. You know, every mountain topple be made low, he holds the earth like dust and his judgment, his love. His judgment is love.

And then it says

we will not fight their wars, we will not fall in line because if it's us, for them, it's us for them. We reject the binary either or like it's just us for them.

And so David's book is titled on the church of us versus them. And I think that that is so often the rhetoric that permeates every single conversation, be it religious or non religious, it's just always my side versus your side, somebody must lose. There's no discernment, there's no patience. There's just finger pointing. And I am as guilty as the next person.

I love this conversation. I love this book. I'm sending it to some of you. And if you're not on that list, get the book. It is very It is very good. And so here we go. No more belaboring the point. Here is the conversation that I have with David E. Fitch about freedom from a faith that feeds on making enemies.

Seth

David E. Fitch and I'm partial to the “E” also have any mines Edward I don't know what yours is. But Welcome to the show. Man. I'm excited. You're here.

David

Good to be here. And I won't tell you what my e is because I don't want anyone to make fun of me on the airwaves…but it’s Elmer

Seth

That's but you said you. Are you making that up? Or that's the real name?

David

No, that is my real middle name. And it's a sacred name in our family. It links back to my grandfather.

Seth

Yeah, I'm I am similar with mine

David

It's got huge lineage in my family.

Seth

I'm with you. Both of my names are grandparents further up down the line. So I'm with you and we've done the same thing with my son like he's in his middle name is named after grandfather and you know, etc. So yeah, no, I definitely. Why would I make fun of your name? Like you had any choice? And but Oh, that would do that.

David

I'm not saying it'll be you. But it would get back to me somehow.

No, I named my son, Elmer. Elmer Max Fitch. And my wife said, well, we'll go with the Elmer but nobody can actually call him Elmer. The only person that can know about Elmer is you and me. And so that's kind of the way you know, his first name is Elmer. But nobody calls him Elmer. And want anybody to know, his first name is Elmer, can you imagine this?

Seth

Well, he will now

David

Hopefully this won’t get back to him

Seth

My favorite conversations are the ones that I laugh a lot. And we're already doing that. So we're well on our way to making this a good one. What would you want people to know about you, David? Like, what is kind of your story? Like what makes you…you?

David

Well, I know most people know me, because I'm a theologian, and I've written books. But the real story is, I was a struggling guy coming out of seminary that got a job as a stockbroker. Rose to the heights of Wall Street, you know with some well off people, I did, okay, in other words, in like, six years, and then I had I tell people.

I got saved, saved for real the second time. And that's when I began a journey of studying for a PhD and running a business and leading a church and trying to sort out life in the big city, if I can put that way. And so I didn't come at being an academic by choosing to be an academic. I actually went through all kinds of stuff, searching, struggling, going through a PhD, leaving the church, writing a book. And then I was asked to take an academic position. I think I want people to know, I'm a pastor, and I've gone through…I've gone through stuff, that non righteous people that grew up living a perfect life have gone through. Does that make sense?

Seth

Yeah, although, I mean, I can half relate to that being in finance. I didn't know you were in the financial world. I like that. Because I often tell people if I could actually make the amount of money that I need to make, and do this full time. And so if you're listening, somebody make that happen. I would I get so much fulfillment out of doing this, I read so many new ideas. And so I am envious, that you did it, you know that you've done it. Not that I don't like banking? I do like it. But I love this, if that makes sense…

David 8:04

Well, I wouldn't say I've done it, I'm, you know, Stanley Hauerwas starts off the first line of his autobiography, by saying “I did not intend to be Stanley Hauerwas”.

I did not intend, really, for my life to develop the way it did. It was just like submitting faithfully to what God had for me. And if I had to do it all over again, I probably would have done it differently. But actually, God works in through all things to achieve and accomplish His purposes. So that's the way it turned out. And probably who knows if you stay faithful day in day out to your job and this work? Who knows? guys can take you. That's a message for anybody, not just this old guy talking on a podcast.

Seth

But yeah, who does know? I mean, if you'd asked me five years ago, if I would be sitting right here at this moment, I would have been like, Yeah, probably not. Nobody cares what this idiot has to say. And I would still think that that's probably true. But I think people care for a genuine conversations, which leads me to what you've written. So the book that you have most recently written, I think came out in what is it July? Is that when it came out?

David

Yeah.

Seth

And so I apologize. I think I've had it since then. And I’ve just been so…because July, the summer months for me, I’ve got three small kids that are consuming, like consuming is not the applicable adjective... like it just sucks the life out of everything. But it's fun. They're all under the age of 10. And it is consuming.

David

Wow.

Seth

So I read your book a while back, and then I refreshed on it a little bit before talking to you today. And I absolutely liked this book. And so when you say the church of us versus them, I wanted to start with that, like, who is us? Who is them?

David

Yeah, well, it starts with the church, it just starts with a general description of churches, United States of America, and how we started defining ourselves; self understanding who we are by who we're not. And so church has kind of develop this mentality, this competitive mentality, this us versus them mentality, even within the church. So, you know, John MacArthur might define him, and who he is over against the charismatics, or over against the social justice people, etc, etc. And that kind of mentality kind of spreads the progressives against the conservatives, the arming LGBTQ against the non affirming, and we have all these us versus them, definitions of who we are as Christians, but it doesn't stop there, it actually becomes the DNA of how we relate to the world.

And so we can't get we define ourselves over against this person or that person. It's kind of like a disease. It's kind of like an idiological way of being that is infested how we gather as a people. And my argument or my plea, in the church of us versus them is, no, this is not who and who Jesus is, this is not the people of God in Christ. This is not who were called to be. Let's get out of this ideological existence. So we can be the people of God for the world, and for his mission in the world.

Seth

Well, I mean, getting John MacArthur, he keeps switching to them, because he just gets mad at say, Well, I'm not that old, I'm almost I'm an upper mid 30s, there we go. Um, but in my just limited history, like, he just yells at somebody different every couple years, he finds a new them, which seems like a lot of energy wasted, like, you should really just target somebody. And if you're going to act that way, you know, beat them into submission, I guess, if that's the mindset, but he seems to jump around from who is the them, which seems just like a lot of wasted energy.

David

And people are going to accuse me of like, defining myself over against John MacArthur. And there's always those feeling, he, you know, double negative things that happen, we can't get out of the spiral. But just looking at Dr. MacArthur and what goes on, it kind of illustrates the principle of the way ideology works. If you have to define yourself and who you are, and rally a crowd, by gathering them against an object or an enemy, I described this in, I think, the first couple of chapters of the book, then once that runs out, you've got to find a new enemy, because that energy doesn't have anything substantive out of which to live life, and it will run out, the enemy will kind of have a shelf life, and then you'll have to invent a whole new enemy to keep the machine going.

And you know, we have a president in office right now, who basically lives this way every day. But it's very signifying as to kind of the bad habits we've gotten into, as far as the church and its formation as a people in the world.

Seth 13:17

So I usually intentionally do not talk politics, but I don't see a way to talk about this conversation, without government and politics like forefront. And so I just want to, I just wanna get a few things out of the way, I'm not a fan of the President. And those that know me know that. And so anything I say, to talk badly about our government is really from a heart of, I really wish that it would work, because I live here, and I needed to work. And my kids live here. And I need it to work. And so does everybody listening, and anyone that you share it with?

One of the things that annoys me and I, I argue all the time, David, about how we are not a Christian nation, how we've never been one. And it's, I find myself when I do that, though, I oftentimes feel like I'm creating a new us versus them. And it's not progressive versus that's not what I'm trying to say. I feel like it's those that know, history and those that don't. So how would you recommend someone have a conversation of an us versus them specifically, when it comes to like politics, as we're entering into the primary season? You know, in at recording, you know, the senator, what is it Gillibrand, I think that's who it is, you just dropped out of the race. And so that will continue to go. And as minds coalesce, the US is and then dems are going to get bigger, be that the church? Or be that the party of choice? So how do you enter into a conversation with someone, and even find a level playing field to begin a conversation in actual authentic by purpose,

David

What ideology does is, it creates a cause, and creates promises around that cause that are impossible to be fulfilled. And then it aligns, it kind of builds your identity around being against this enemy in this fraud. And what happens is you never…it takes you out of the actual discerning process of any real issue on the ground. This is what is so damaging about ideology, we extract beliefs or discernment’s out of their context out of actual discipleship, people's lives, and we turn them into a banner, I call it a banner, and then rally people using the banner against an enemy. And we never get to actually discerning anything, we do this in sexuality, right? We are either affirming or not affirming. And we go into these big culture wars, and rallying people to become so emotional, our identity gets so tied into it, we actually never get to actually talking to anybody was gauging all, as far as I know, engaged in sexuality issues of multiple complexities. But we never actually talked about or get to discerning these in these places of safety, under the redeeming work of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ.

No, we never get to that we just stay above it all in these arguments for against now, this is what happens with politics. We create this imaginary christian nation as a cause to get behind. But nobody really believes forget all this legislation put it in, and all these supreme court justices putting it all of a sudden, we're going to have a nation that looks more Christian, actually, that kind of I've shown the book how that works against the idea of more Christian.

So what we do is we just get the strategy and I want to say no, let's actually work on the ground locally, on the issues that are so important politically, that we have to work out, you know, whether it be taxes, whether it be legislation for how we take care of our health care problems, or whatever it might be, let's start working it on the ground in groups of people. You know, that's what the word ecclesia, the Greek word, that Paul the Apostle used for church that came off the set to agent that referred to the people of Israel, but actually it was, it was actually a word that meant the political organizing locally, of every Greek, little state or city or village or town. And what Paul was saying is the church does the work of organizing people for God's kingdom in Christ, even though those people don't know they're under his rule yet. We're going to discern it here first. And then we're going to proclaim the good news to other people. And I just, I don't know if that was too long, and explanation, but I've what I'm really trying to say is let's start local. And let's stay on the ground and discern these issues locally. Whether it be Who should I vote for, whether it be how do we deal with taxes? Whether it be how do we deal with the injustices of racism in this town, or whatever it might be? Let's let's deal with it locally. And then let's work out solutions together as a people got then let's take him to the town hall village meeting. And let's take him to the state. You know, Canada's national health care system started in the in a small city in Saskatchewan, Canada, under the leadership of a Baptist pastor named Tommy Douglas. And the revolution began, it didn't start in Ottawa, House of Parliament started in a little town with a guy named Tommy Douglas.

Seth

Yeah, I remember I forget what book it was one of the first time I talked to a Benjamin Corey, I was reading a lot about, you know, back in like, you know, 17 1800s, like some of the church did some beautiful work, because they weren't really attached at the hip to making enemies or naming enemies, just actually maybe loving people, caring for people. And they did a lot. They start libraries start schools start churches start, you know, the Red Cross start Salvation Army. And I didn't know that about Canada. But that was back when the church, I think acted like one as opposed to a social club with money influence.

David

Yes, I think I give the example of how the civil rights movement didn't happen through Lyndon Baines Johnson and the administration in the White House, it happened. If you read Charles Marshes book, Beloved Community, all the history is kind of sketched out of the Jim Crow South and Nonviolent Coordinating Committee started to happen locally in various colleges, campuses, towns, villages, what they really were were prayer meetings, where people white and black, gathered together around tables, and started praying and upsetting the Jim Crow South. And from that came the civil rights movement.

We must understand, let's go local. So I'm saying, Let's because if we just get caught up in these ideological struggles about what does it mean to be a Christian nation, which really we don't, it really doesn't mean anything. We don't really know what it means. Like, what would it mean, for the United States to be a Christian nation? Can somebody please don't me that? I don't think we know. And I don't think it's possible to even you know, have a so called Christian nation at this point in time. No, what we need to do is go local, and spread the gospel, the justice of Jesus Christ, and every nook and cranny where we where we live and let God take care of how he's going to reign the world.

Seth

I agree, because I don't think we have a Christian nation because most Christians don't agree on simple things like say, the Bible, or so until there's that. I don't see how you could have a Christian nation, because that's, that's why we have all these different. Well, one of the reasons we have all these different denominations. One more thing on Christian nation, I've heard you either speak, or maybe I read it. But I've read a lot lately. But I've heard you talk about, you know, the pre and post World War Two, Germany and how it was the preeminent Christian nation, if there ever there was one, you've got all these Lutheran ministers, and kind of how that morphed into what it became. And a lot of that I remember when I when I saw it, I was like, this is I didn't have any of that context. I wonder if you could go into a bit of that here. Because I feel like I'm probably not the only one. Because I know in the school systems I went to we don't really talk about any things that aren't America. And so it's hard to make those correlations.

David

Yeah. Well, you know, the fact the matter was Germany, by legislation was Christian nation. Well, third Catholic, two thirds Lutheran, but it was all into the German church structure. We all pay taxes. So anyways, the real question, I mean, I'm still studying it to this day, I was happy to be in Berlin last summer stunned by just the history that that country is living and grieving over and repenting of, and how it all happened. But you know, all you have to do is study, Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the end, the German church movement and the Barman Declaration, to see how by the time the church woke up, it was too late. And it was in the church, the German church, and you know, I Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the things was, like, I don't know how famous this is, but when I read it, it became famous to me said the reason why seven thousand Lutheran pastors that have for one reason and can summarize their pensions.

So when money and power and everything gets loaded up into the structure, we end up succumbing. And I think the same power is going on today, with so many white evangelicals in the south. aligning themselves with a very non Christian, almost disgusting administration is mind boggling how the ideologies gotten ahold of us. So I think we need to study how and when things happened in Germany, there's a lot of people who poo poo that idea, oh, this is not Germany. But yet there are things to learn from what happened there. And how we became, I have this, these two lectures I'm I'm writing right now, in the process to deliver in California in February, where I say the problem isn't that we're on the wrong side of history. The problem is that we're on the wrong side of power. You know, the argument is get on the right side of history, and get ahead of things. Actually, every time we've been on the wrong side of power, things have gone very wrong. God works among the poor, the hurting, the broken, the marginalized, because his power doesn't operate the way the world's power does. And he changes things where his power spaces may open for. So anyways, all these things we can study through the German church problem. And you know, I'd start with Reggie Williams. Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Love that book, in terms of understanding how we can get so sucked up into white nationalism. And we're just not seeing this is not the gospel. This is not Jesus.

Seth

I don't know anything about that book. But I'm going to fix that today. So you talked, you talked there. And there's a reason I asked that question. I hope that you go there. And so that's why you're a person rational, and I am not. So you talked about, you know, the way that you know, we have a love affair with power, and evangelicalism. And I struggle with that word, I struggle to call myself an evangelical because it means so many other things that have nothing to do with the gospel. But that's a slightly different topic. But you’ve got a section in a chapter on let's make America Christian again, that's titled and the reason it's caught me as I went to Liberty, and so I'm very attuned to Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. And so you say Jerry Falwell, or Jim Wallace, what's the difference? So what is the difference for those that haven't read the book like what he's saying there?

David

I'm an Anabaptist most people know I'm a NEO Anabaptist. I have learned from Stanley Hauerwas and many other Neo Anabaptists. It just, I tell people, Stanley Hauerwas, you know, was the means by which I became a Christian again, he got me into understanding the Bible. One of the one of the things anabaptism is we realize that God's power in in through Jesus Christ, and I do believe its power. But it is just so different. Usurping force, violent power of the world, and by violence, I just don't mean physical violence, or shooting somebody with a gun. Although that is a very visceral manifestation of the same dynamic. I mean, all forms of force all forms of coercion, all forms of me over you getting you to do something that I want you to do in the name of an agenda or some purpose that I have decided or become part of.

So anyways, the whole point here is, is that there's two kinds of power. Another distinction in theological world is preservatory power. Luther call that the left hand of the government and the right hand is redemptive power. What I'm trying to say here is, is that we need to understand that Jim Wallace, who was an Anabaptist, suddenly started writing books like God's Politics, and we've got to do things through the government. And yet he had this he had a Biblically, I think he called it the Isaiah platform. And that book, and he's got a very Biblically are well argued, biblical ethic that he wants the government to enforce. Very similar to Jerry Falwell, of course, and the Moral Majority, although both have they both had very different senses of what what what that ethic and the emphasis within that should be, they both took the same means, which is let's get the government to do the bidding of God.

And what I want to say is, government can do some things. But it's very limited. So go ahead and vote and go ahead and work for government. But it's going to be very limited, the redemptive work of what God wants to do in our culture can come only in in through the church through the power, and the presence of God through Jesus Christ. That may sound very individualistic, because that's the way evangelicals have already said it. I believe it's very social. I think God wants to work in in through the neighborhoods, and the places of worldly power, for his purposes, through his presence, and to the way he works in the world. Does that make sense? Can you clarify for me everything I just said?

Seth

(Laughter) just read the book. There we go.

David

laughter……

That's why I see Jim Wallace and Jerry Falwell as two sides of the same coin.

Seth

Yeah.

David

Employing worldly power to accomplish their biblical agendas, even though their Biblical agendas are quite different.

Seth

I don't think there's a way to read the Bible. I think it's really hard to read the Bible and not read looking for the God that you're trying to find. And I don't know that I'm saying that well, and but then you take that as ammunition. And so I want to backtrack back to the beginning of the book, you talk about people using the Bible is a blunt instrument. And that phrasing is used often. And so I'd like to turn the question a bit, how would you invite us You said, you know, you're a pastor. And I mean, obviously, you're training pastors while you're an academic. And so in your experience, how would you train pastors to instead of using the Bible as a blunt instrument, to use it as a precise one? Because I think there is a purpose for how Scripture can sometimes cut down what doesn't need to be there. So how would we instead frame using Scripture and using Scripture is a bad way to say that, you know, letting Scripture use us as a precise instrument, as opposed to just a God hates gays? God only likes Republicans, you know, or whatever the blunt, whatever the blunt thing is,

David

Yeah, well, we have to deconstruct.

I'm going to use a couple of big words here.

Seth

Perfect.

David

I'm going to deconstruct epistemology, the way we know something. We have said, The Bible is inerrant, every word is God breathed. perspicuous is a word the reformers have used, it is eminently clear, all I have to do is my homework, and I get to the right, meaning. But we individualized that; the fact of the matter is that worked in Christendom, Euro-Christendom where there was already a consensus on what all the texts means.

Now go to your average church meeting or go to a pick a commentary off your library wall, and you'll find four or five meanings for every text, for every verse. Well, how do we deal with that? You know, so the first thing I think, when we, when we meet over an issue, it's a communal work of God, by His Holy Spirit; Acts chapter 15 I think it is, you know, they got together, they asked, what does this mean, they will search the Scriptures. They said, We are seeing the Holy Spirit at work in Gentile believers. What does this mean? And then what are the demands, and then they say it See, it is good, thenI believe James wrote that, that note, it seems good to us and the Holy Spirit to do A, B and C. You know, that's the process of how we gather together to interpret Scripture on things that we don't agree on.

And so when we had a couple of people, wonderful people disagree with our church, and how we were affirming women in ministry, we all got to get there. All those who were committed to this issue. Some were even offended that we would open up the discussion again, of women ministry. But we first deconstructed what Scripture is, we all bring agendas here. We're submitting them to the work of the Holy Spirit, then we're going to look at verses and submit one to another and listen carefully and we're going to pray. And we're going to open space for God to speak. And we're going to hear all side. And we'll listen to the teachers. But we're also listening to pastors and the evangelists and the other gifted people in our midst.

And you know, after like seven weeks of going through the texts, and listening to one another, and we all came to some conclusions, we wrote some conclusions on the big whiteboard, or what we call it that we had, we didn't have everybody agree, like we take a one to five assessment. Where you? 1: Satan's working this affirmation that cannot agree…. 5: I agree wholeheartedly, 4: I have some reservations…but I could follow this.

We had no threes twos or ones, we had all fives and three fours, but even the ones who couldn't completely agree said, I can trust what the Holy Spirit is doing in this church, where he's leading us through the teaching, and submitting to Scripture on this issue. So everybody, everybody was met, in one way or another and came to a coalescence as to where God was taking us in relation to this issue. I wish we could do that kind of thing. It takes some training, we had to train people how to submit to one another and reading scripture. But I wish we could do that in regard to sexuality. I wish we could do that, with regard to all the all the problems we have in our towns and villages and families, even over issues of finances. You know, let's listen to Scripture, listen to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, submit to one another and then say, it seems good to us and the Holy Spirit that He is leading us to do this.

Seth 34:05

So I want to push on that a little bit. Because the way that my brain works, I can see…so say, I'm out here in Central Virginia, and the people that I'm involved with whatever the community is, however many hundreds or thousands of us are, I come to a submission to one another that this is the way that scripture is viewed. And then someone and say, I don't know, let's say somewhere in Iowa, I don't even know what town in Iowa, that’s sad, whatever, a town in a different state that they come to the opposing view. So then how did those two sects come together and figure out how to lower the banner, or to use a descriptor that you use, when they don't agree? Like how did those two after they've come to a massive consensus between the two, which is amazing if it happens, because people are letting go of power, which is one of the most Christ like things I think you can do. And it's hard to do. So how do you do it when you know, across our country or across the ocean, the two opposing sides come into clash, like just in the past few years, and you've got, you know, the Methodist Church on homosexuality, but you also have the Methodist Church on women in ministry. And I believe like the Mennonite Church is coming up for a vote on that in the next little bit. And the the covenant was called evangelical covenant church is coming up for it again, and I think they just decided to table it, because nobody could figure out how to talk about it. So what happens for those that do talk about it, you know, they made a decision. And it disagrees with another massive body that has also figured out how to submit one another. And they've made a decision. How do you know he wants us to?

David

in regard to denominational structures? You know, I probably shouldn't try to give a single answer to all the problems that we have, across all denominations. But if I were a denominational President, I would charge all the issues that we cannot agree on, I would give the local churches power to discern this locally and give some freedom in the various churches to discern things locally.

But we will find out where God is working and where he's leading and where he's not. The fruit will become apparent. But I think the real revolution and things that shaped our churches start locally. I think the problem with United Methodist is they tried to enforce a single unilateral decision from the top down across multiple contextual boundaries. I don't even think American white people in the United Methodist Church understood that when the Africans were saying the word sexuality, they did not mean the same thing that Americans mean, when they say sexuality.

I could go off on a riff on that. But the fact is, power structures of denominations trying to enforce a singular decision top down through a vote is a recipe for disaster because it employs worldly power, not the power of the Holy Spirit. I think we need to start locally, give it 10 to 15 years and a consensus…

Host note:

Time out real quick. So you'll notice there and the audio just went crazy. I don't know what happened to the internet. I'm going to blame it on nobody. So what we did is I decided to go old school when him got David's phone number. So I apologize for this brief interruption. Here we go. We'll do the rest. A little bit more old school. Back to it.

David

Dave Fitch here…

Seth

Here we go! We will finish it old school. So yeah, so to recap that, because some of the cut in and out. So basically, where you can agree, give the local church autonomy to make that decision for what works best in the community that they're in?

David

Yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't say autonomy. But I wouldn't call it autonomy, because we're all linked. But what it means is we're giving freedom to open space for those conversations and discernment locally, on the ground. Listen to people, listen to Scripture. If I were denominations, I'd give some, you know, some simple directive, some handouts, some directions, and study scripture together locally. And I do believe, I do believe when there's not consensus, I do believe over time, the fruit will be born and become clear and eventual consensus will happen.

I mean, isn't this the way? You know? I mean, I don't want to idealize or romanticize the great councils of the third and fourth and fifth century because there was actually a lot of Constantinian power being wielded around at Nicea and elsewhere. But you know, basically, things were happening on the ground in various regions of the church. And they came together to discern and ask what's happening over there? What's happening over here? And how does this make sense? And what can we learn from each other in terms of assembling a unifying document? And I think that's what we need to do again.

Seth

So I'm glad that you went there. For those that haven't bought David's book go and do so. Because this entire episode, we've bounced around themes that are in an appendix at the back at least, that's what I'm hearing, David. And if I mishearing that wrong, you just tell me, but most people don't read pass the last chapter. So you have to appendix is dependencies, whatever that word is? And so I'm going to read those out if that's alright, with you.

So you know, the first thing you talk about, you know, for tactics for engagement, you know, we're opening space, for the antagonisms is, tell a story about a real person, and then ask how do we discern this issue, which is what you know, you basically just broke down, make observations and ask questions that reveal the contradictions at work, which I really like, because that forces me to have to listen to you. Like I have here, what you saying? Because I have to ask questions about the contradiction, as opposed to saying… “You're, you're stupid, of course” you read it wrong. I mean, of course, you're from, you know, you're from you from wherever you're from. That's y'all are stupid over there”.

You know, and then, three, don't humiliate or defeat the other person, which is literally what I just did,

David

Laughter.

Seth

Four start in agreement, from what we have in common, and I think that is perfectly fine. What it was somebody I spoke with Bonnie Kristian, that said, you know, concentric circles, like we don't agree about a lot of dogma. But that dogma doesn't matter as much as what we do agree on. And that's Jesus. And so let's focus on that, and then branch out from there. And then lastly, you know, make a proposal in the spirit of mutual submission. And I just love those five things. And I wonder what the church would maybe look like, in the future if we actually did that. And so that leads me to my final question.

You know, I am a millennial. I'm one of the first of the generations of millennials, barely a millennial, but I relate a lot to them. And so people in my age demographic are, like, jettisoning as quickly as possible from the church, because I'm so sick and tired of it, just all of it capital “I” capital “T”, just all of it. Yeah. And so, for pastors listening, how can they use those five things I just very briefly read out to create a place or a new type of church, that will be something that both I and my children will exist in? Because I'm terrified that if I honestly am terrified that whatever version of the American church exists, it won't be that. I don't know what it will be. But I know if it looks like it does now, it will just get more and more unhealthy. So how can we take those five things and create a better, like a better church that millennials are happy to go to? Because to be frank, they are the biggest population in not only this country, most countries.

David

So yeah, yeah. Well, we're in a hell of a mess right now.

You know, for years, especially if you're a white, old guy, old, defined as 50 and over, you grew up in a time when white Christians were pretty much in charge, and even in charge in a way of the culture. And that's all like, flittering away, and those who are out of those time frames, but even those who've been raised by people who were used to that, we want to hold on, and we're used to just arguing and holding on to our power.

And when that's no longer there, we now we're in a space of mission, and we just have to operate totally differently. We can't assume anything, we can't actually assume there's any power to be granted. And so we must become organizers of the Kingdom. The way we organize, is by doing those things, you just like described in the appendix but really that run throughout the whole book. I've written this book to try to help people to understand the dynamics that are work it ideologically that come from, you know, Christendom wanting to hold on to its power, and it's not going to work. And so we have to give up the power. And we have to trust the power at work in Christ, wherever we gather in his name.

And so I'll summarize those tactics you just set off the appendix with the story of Jesus and the adulteress and, you know, in John chapter 8, the adulterous is put into kind of the middle of or before everybody as an object of distain, an enemy. And so often, pastors, churches, get caught up in in that that issue, we have an enemy and by the way, the world just presents us for these terms all the time, because this is the way the world operates. Apart from God, well, we don't want to do that. Nobody is an enemy. Enemies might be revealed, but we don't make enemies. And it's not our job to call out the enemy instead. You know.

So where was I? My son just walked? You said, you said,

Seth

you said enemies might be revealed, but we don't make enemies.

Hey Elmer how are you doing?

David

Laughter—-Don’t call him that…ha ha..he didn’t hear that.

speaks with Son! more laughter

Okay, anyways, let's get back on track here. Yeah, the adulterous is being made into an object of disdain the enemy when must overcome that, by, you know, whenever we're in the middle of these arguments, or tempted to enter into these antagonisms. Tell a real story about a real person or ask the person their story. And when the real facts come out, the issues come out. It's hard to make an enemy out of it person, but instead God wants to work in and through that person.

Jesus, you know, makes observations and starts with agreements, basically says, Okay, yeah, you are perfect. Yeah, I agree with the law. The law has become the theology of banner in this case. When the Pharisees asked Jesus, what shall we do stone her according to the law, and they're trying to turn the law into a banner and Jesus resists that. And he just says, frankly, does something to reveal the contradiction in their lives by finding a point of agreement? And he says something like, yeah, you who are perfect…throw the first stone. And then of course, they're able to see the contradiction. And they all start walking away. And that clear space for Jesus to be present to the adulterous and say you are forgiven. Say you are loved, and now go and work out your salvation go and send them. We the church need to be Jesus in clearing the antagonisms. Allowing them to fritter away because God can't work in in these antagonistic environments. Conflict is one thing, turning them into antagonism is another thing. And we must be present to one another. And the conflicts allow the antagonism to go away, clear space for God to work, reconciliation, and healing in and through Jesus Christ. That's my challenge. That's the call of the church to be this kind of people in our culture today. This is what God wants to do. He will raise up a new people, and millennials and everybody else that so aggravated pissed off and wants to walk away from church will be lining up to become part of this. This new movement of God in our culture, I believe.

Seth

Yeah, I hope so. Point people in the right place, David, where do they go? Where do they either yell at you if they disagree, so that we can find that common ground? Or we're hopefully that's not what happens? Where do they go to interact with you get the book, which I'm sure is available, everywhere that books are available. But where would you point people to?

David

I have a lively conversation that goes on on my Facebook page, David Fitch, Fitchest, at Facebook, you can't become my friend, because I don't have any space. And I won't go to a public page. But followers, just follow me. And you'll get in on all the conversations. I have a Twitter page, which is pretty active, @FITCHEST. And you can buy the book, of course at Amazon, in your local bookstore, or wherever you find books.

Seth

Perfect.

Thank you so much for coming on. And I've enjoyed it quite a bit.

David

Good to be with you, man. And I hope to meet you along the way there in Virginia Keep up the good work,

Seth

Will do

Outro

The appendix at the back there, right that we went over at the tale end it is simplistically hard. And it is something I've tried to model not only in the way that I did faith since reading this book, but in just the way that I do conversations, it is really helped me oftentimes see things from a different lens. And there have been a lot of things that have come into contact of my life lately that have done that have re-framed the way that I see the world. And it is uncomfortable. And I think that it is true. I think that I meet God there. And I think that I'm changing in ways that I wouldn't have thought prior. And so I hope that you got as much out of today's conversation as I did a very special thank you to Derek Meyers for your music for today's episode. You'll find links to all of his stuff in the show notes as well as everything that David and I spoke about. I cannot wait for next week. We're going to have a conversation about Henry now and and that is fantastic. I'm excited for that very excited.

I hope that you realize how beloved you are. Be blessed. Talk to you next week.